sdkfz 250 with french hotcskiss 25mm antitank in north afrik

[Eduard]

I've recently seen a picture of one of those rare birds.

AFAIK they were used by reconaisance abt. 39 in north afrika, but do any of you know when they were received and how long they remained in use?
How many were made?

Many thanks

Eduard

[David W]

This is a difficult question to answer, because they were a field conversion, and not an official variant. They were probably classified as /11. But I'll see what I can do.

B.t.w there was no 39th Recce. You may mean 39th Pz Jag.

[phylo_roadking]

I've only ever seen it listed as an sdkfz 250/1 "Alte" with a theatre-conversion "2.5cm Pak 112(f)" mounted on it, the Beute name for the 34/37 SA.

[David W]

Phylo.

That would make sense.

[Eduard]

Thanks David,

Yes nor 39 but Aufklarungs abt. 33 of the 15th panzer div. They were received in early May 1942 : 10 in number in 2 zuge of 5.

But I don't know how long did they last?

Thanks Eduard

[David W]

I had the 33rd Recce Abt receiving those 1/2 tracks in August, not May. But you may be right, and I may be wrong. I certainly didn't know that all 10 were fitted with the French gun. I assumed it was a mix of 37mm & 28mm.

I wonder if we can get an absolute confirmation of the date?

[phylo_roadking]

Be interesting to know where the 37 SA's came from for the conversions - and the idea. They had mostly been withdrawn from even occupation/garrison use in Europe by then.

[David W]

Phylo.

With my date (Aug) I has always assumed they had been captured by the Germans, when they were left behind by the Bir Hacheim garrison, after it's night time withdrawal.
Eduard's date pretty much procludes that theory however.

[Eduard]

Hi,


My data comes from recent Osprey Book: " Rommel's afrika Korps" that also includes one side picture.
It looks like they were sent to the DAK already converted but, im not sure? This guns were used by the French in Bir Hakeim but taking in account that the French evacuated the area in relative order it would be rare to abandon the guns in usable condition... They had also a bigger quantity of 75mm guns that were abandoned that were not used afterwards by the axis, so I presume they were disabled before leaving as good soldiers would do.

The Italians had used also the gun as antitank gun sometimes earlier: fall 1941, but I doubt any remained in use in Italian units in 1942. Apart from its very little usefulness aganist british tanks.

It makes more sense to use them in AA (recee) units that needed at least a light AT weapon to fight other armoured cars and reconaissance vehicles lightly armoured like themselves and the occasional enemy tank found. The AA units were also provided with heavy: 50mm AT guns in order to be able to defend themselves from enemy tanks.

It surprises me a bit that the french gun was used at all. The germans had the 37mm and 28mm already in use, both with better antitank performance than the french gun and with less logistical problems as both were also used by infantry units. So in fact it looks like some kind of improvisation in order to improve AA unit firepower without having to follow the aproved ways... that is asking for 250/10's or 205/11's and waiting for them to arrive....

Just another guess of my own: But the same book shows in a table that in November 15th panzer had just 2 sdkfz's 250 without specify the type. Taking in account that from august to november the AA 33 did not participate in any major fight , well yes Halam Halfa, its strange it lost all 10 of them....
I think May 42 suits better because of all the Gazala and first alamein fights were AA 33 was heavily invoved... but just a guess.

Well, thanks

Eduard

[Lannes]

Folks,
I think this may be relevant: http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/ ... e-ww2.html .
I have the history of AA33 and will check it tonight or tomorrow to see if there's any information on the 25mms. IIRC there was a reference to the fact that even Shermans (or maybe Grants?) could be engaged with a reasonable chance of success.
More soon.
Aris Kosionidis

[phylo_roadking]

Lannes, reading through that - that pushes the date right back 18 or so months into 1943! So THAT brings up the possibility that the homebrewed "unit" conversions mentioned...are homebrewed copies of what they saw before???

As for engaging Shermans and Grants...these things didn't work worth much of a damn at the START of the war!

[David W]

Guys.

Don't forgat that the LoneSentry article is just a "suggested". And it's a theoretical "suggested" at that.

[Lannes]

Folks,
first, two points on the lonesentry.com article:
1) the date of 1943 is the date the article appeared in the official US publication.
2) at the end of the last paragraph, note the phrase "...the company has already created a heavy platoon with two 75-mm infantry guns and four 25-mm antitank guns mounted on personnel carriers".
Moving on to what the AA33 history has to say on the subject:
The armoured infantry company joined the battalion as 2./AA33 on 25th April '42. There are no mentions of 25mm. On 12 Sept. '42 the battalion still doesn't report 25mm, but they report among other things two leIG on SPW. There is mention of 25mms in action on 6th November '42.
best regards
Aris Kosionidis

[David W]

Has anyone turned up any new information about this recently?

[PA. Dutchman]

This link may be of some help. It describes this gun as being used by the Germans after the far of France.

http://www.lovettartillery.com/25mm_SAL ... _1937.html

I could not copy and paste the text but it mentions its' use in North Africa by the German Army.