There will always be an England?

A place to relocate messages and threads that should be deleted.
pzrmeyer2

There will always be an England?

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

In the spirit of those other threads on the topic of the demise and dissolution of the United Kingdom, i offer this little gem...
Cameron in race row as Tory claims that Enoch was right


Nicholas Watt, political editor
Sunday November 4, 2007
The Observer
David Cameron was drawn into a row over race last night after a candidate in a high-profile Parliamentary seat praised Enoch Powell for his notorious 'rivers of blood' speech, which warned that Britain was 'literally mad' to allow widespread immigration.
Days after Cameron was praised by the head of the Equality Commission for tackling the issue of immigration in a non-racial way, Labour called on the Tory leader to remove Nigel Hastilow as a prospective Conservative candidate for declaring that Powell was 'right'.
Communities Secretary Hazel Blears told The Observer: 'It's not unreasonable to be concerned about the impact of immigration, but it is unacceptable to say Enoch Powell was right. David Cameron should reconsider his support for this candidate.'
Hastilow has been summoned to a meeting today with Caroline Spelman, the Tory chairman, to explain his column in the Wolverhampton Express and Star newspaper in which he complained about how immigration has changed Britain and placed great strains on housing and public services.
A Conservative party spokesman said: 'Candidates of all parties should take great care when discussing what can be a sensitive and even inflammatory issue. Politicians and those seeking to be politicians have a responsibility in this area that they must observe. Mr Hastilow has been required to see the party chairman tomorrow, where he will be told this in clear terms.'
The row broke out after Hastilow, who last year accused Muslims of using terror attacks to 'issue demands' for their own bank holidays and schools, wrote of special treatment offered to immigrants. He wrote that 'we [Britain] roll out the red carpet for foreigners while leaving the locals to fend for themselves'. Hastilow, a former editor of the Birmingham Post, added: 'When you ask most people in the Black Country what the single biggest problem facing the country is, most say immigration. Many insist: "Enoch Powell was right".
'Enoch, once MP for Wolverhampton South-West, was sacked from the Conservative front bench and marginalised politically for his 1968 "rivers of blood" speech, warning that uncontrolled immigration would change our country irrevocably. He was right. It has changed dramatically.'
Cameron was irritated by the behaviour of Hastilow, who will contest the marginal seat of Halesowen and Rowley Regis, which the Tories must win if they are to regain power, after he mounted a strong defence of his article. 'It is in line with Conservative policy,' he told The Observer. 'Uncontrolled immigration will do this country great damage. In the last 10 years we have had more or less uncontrolled immigration.'
But Hastilow won strong support from his local Tory association. 'Most certainly, yes,' said Mary Docker, chairman of the Halesowen and Rowley Regis association, when asked by The Observer if she would stand by Hastilow. 'He is a down-to-earth man who talks to people and doesn't talk at them. He is representative of the views of many Black Country people.'
But some of Hastilow's language may be regarded as controversial. He opens his article with the story of 'a granny' who has had to house her single-parent daughter and two young children because all council housing has been taken by immigrants. He writes: 'They have more or less given up complaining about the way we roll out the red carpet for foreigners while leaving the locals to fend for themselves.'
This is not the first time Hastilow has strayed into this area. Last year his blog said that Muslims 'are seizing the opportunity not just to reject the idea of singling out potential terrorists for special attention, they're using the latest crisis to demand their own bank holidays, their own schools, even their own laws. They want an Islamic state within a state

and here is Powell's original speech:
Enoch Powell’s speech to the Annual General Meeting of the West Midlands Area Conservative Political Centre, Birmingham, England, April 20, 1968.
The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils.

In seeking to do so, it encounters obstacles which are deeply rooted in human nature. One is that by the very order of things such evils are not demonstrable until they have occurred: At each stage in their onset there is room for doubt and for dispute whether they be real or imaginary. By the same token, they attract little attention in comparison with current troubles, which are both indisputable and pressing: whence the besetting temptation of all politics to concern itself with the immediate present at the expense of the future. Above all, people are disposed to mistake predicting troubles for causing troubles and even for desiring troubles: “if only”, they love to think, “if only people wouldn't talk about it, it probably wouldn't happen”. Perhaps this habit goes back to the primitive belief that the word and the thing, the name and the object, are identical.

At all events, the discussion of future grave but, with effort now, avoidable evils is the most unpopular and at the same time the most necessary occupation for the politician. Those who knowingly shirk it, deserve, and not infrequently receive, the curses of those who come after.

A week or two ago I fell into conversation with a constituent, a middle-aged, quite ordinary working man employed in one of our nationalized industries. After a sentence or two about the weather, he suddenly said: “If I had the money to go, I wouldn't stay in this country.”
I made some deprecatory reply, to the effect that even this Government wouldn't last for ever; but he took no notice, and continued: “I have three children, all of them have been through grammar school and two of them married now, with family. I shan't be satisfied till I have seen them settled overseas. In this country in fifteen or twenty years' time the black man will have the whip hand over the white man.”
I can already hear the chorus of execration. How dare I say such a horrible thing? How dare I stir up trouble and inflame feelings by repeating such a conversation?
The answer is that I do not have the right not to do so. Here is a decent, ordinary fellow Englishman, who in broad daylight in my own town says to me, his Member of Parliament, that this country will not be worth living in for his children. I simply do not have the right to shrug my shoulders and think about something else.
What he is saying, thousands and hundreds of thousands are saying and thinking—not throughout Great Britain, perhaps, but in the areas that are already undergoing the total transformation to which there is no parallel in a thousand years of English history.
In fifteen or twenty years, on present trends, there will be in this country 3 1/2 million Commonwealth immigrants and their descendants. That is not my figure. That is the official figure given to Parliament by the spokesman of the Registrar General's office. There is no comparable official figure for the year 2000, but it must be in the region of 5-7 million, approximately one-tenth of the whole population, and approaching that of Greater London.
Of course, it will not be evenly distributed from Margate to Aberystwyth and from Penzance to Aberdeen. Whole areas, towns and parts of towns across England will be occupied by different sections of the immigrant and immigrant-descended population.
As time goes on, the proportion of this total who are immigrant descendants, those born in England, who arrived here by exactly the same route as the rest of us, will rapidly increase. Already by 1985 the native-born would constitute the majority. It is this fact above all which creates the extreme urgency of action now, of just that kind of action which is hardest for politicians to take, action where the difficulties lie in the present but the evils to be prevented or minimized lie several parliaments ahead.
The natural and rational first question with a nation confronted by such a prospect is to ask: “How can its dimensions be reduced?” Granted it be not wholly preventable, can it be limited, bearing in mind that numbers are of the essence: the significance and consequences of an alien element introduced into a country or population are profoundly different according to whether that element is 1 per cent or 10 per cent.
The answers to the simple and rational question are equally simple and rational: by stopping or virtually stopping, further inflow, and by promoting the maximum outflow. Both answers are part of the official policy of the Conservative Party.
It almost passes belief that at this moment twenty or thirty additional immigrant children are arriving from overseas in Wolverhampton alone every week—and that means fifteen or twenty additional families of a decade or two hence. Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad. We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual inflow of some 50,000 dependants, who are for the most part the material of the future growth of the immigrant-descended population.
It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre.
So insane are we that we actually permit unmarried persons to immigrate for the purpose of founding a family with spouses and fiancées whom they have never seen. Let no one suppose that the flow of dependants will automatically tail off. On the contrary, even at the present admission rate of only 5,000 a year by voucher, there is sufficient for a further 325,000 dependants per annum ad infinitum, without taking into account the huge reservoir of existing relations in this country—and I am making no allowance at all for fraudulent entry.
In these circumstances nothing will suffice but that the total inflow for settlement should be reduced at once to negligible proportions, and that the necessary legislative and administrative measures be taken without delay. I stress the words “for settlement”. This has nothing to do with the entry of Commonwealth citizens, any more than of aliens, into this country, for the purposes of study or of improving their qualifications, like (for instance) the Commonwealth doctors who, to the advantage of their own countries, have enabled our hospital service to be expanded faster than would otherwise have been possible. These are not, and never have been, immigrants.
I turn to re-emigration. If all immigration ended tomorrow, the rate of growth of the immigrant and immigrant-descended population would be substantially reduced, but the prospective size of this element in the population would still leave the basic character of the national danger unaffected. This can only be tackled while a considerable proportion of the total still comprises persons who entered this country during the last ten years or so. Hence the urgency of implementing now the second element of the Conservative Party's policy: the encouragement of re-emigration.
Nobody can make an estimate of the numbers which, with generous grants and assistance, would choose either to return to their countries of origin or to go to other countries anxious to receive the manpower and the skills they represent. Nobody knows, because no such policy has yet been attempted. I can only say that, even at present, immigrants in my own constituency from time to time come to me, asking if I can find them assistance to return home. If such a policy were adopted and pursued with the determination which the gravity of the alternative justifies, the resultant outflow could appreciably alter the prospects for the future.
It can be no part of any policy that existing family should be kept divided; but there are two directions in which families can be reunited, and if our former and present immigration laws have brought about the division of families, albeit voluntary or semi-voluntarily, we ought to be prepared to arrange for them to be reunited in their countries of origin.
In short, suspension of immigration and encouragement of re-emigration hang together, logically and humanly, as two aspects of the same approach.
The third element of the Conservative Party's policy is that all who are in this country as citizens should be equal before the law and that there shall be no discrimination or difference made between them by public authority. As Mr. Heath has put it, we will have no “first-class citizens” and “second-class citizens”.
This does not mean that the immigrant and his descendants should be elevated into a privileged or special class or that the citizen should be denied his right to discriminate in the management of his own affairs between one fellow citizen and another or that he should be subjected to inquisition as to his reasons and motives for behaving in one lawful manner rather than another.
There could be no grosser misconception of the realities than is entertained by those who vociferously demand legislation as they call it “against discrimination”, whether they be leader-writers of the same kidney and sometimes on the same newspapers which year after year in the 1930s tried to blind this country to the rising peril which confronted it, or archbishops who live in palaces, faring delicately with the bedclothes pulled right over their heads. They have got it exactly and diametrically wrong. The discrimination and the deprivation, the sense of alarm and resentment, lies not with the immigrant population but with those among whom they have come and are still coming.
This is why to enact legislation of the kind before Parliament at this moment is to risk throwing a match on to the gunpowder. The kindest thing that can be said about those who propose and support it is they know not what they do.
Nothing is more misleading than comparison between the Commonwealth immigrant in Britain and the American Negro. The Negro population of the United states, which was already in existence before the United States became a nation, started literally as slaves and were later given the franchise and other rights of citizenship, to the exercise of which they have only gradually and still incompletely come. The Commonwealth immigrant came to Britain as a full citizen, to a country which knows no discrimination between one citizen and another, and he entered instantly into the possession of the rights of every citizen, from the vote to free treatment under the National Health Service. Whatever drawbacks attended the immigrants—and they were drawbacks which did not, and do not, make admission into Britain by hook or by crook appear less than desirable—arose not from the law or from public policy or from administration but from those personal circumstances and accidents which cause, and always will cause, the fortunes and experience of one man to be different for another's.
But while to the immigrant entry to this country was admission to privileges and opportunities eagerly sought, the impact upon the existing population was very different. For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country. They found their wives unable to obtain hospital beds in childbirth, their children unable to obtain school places, their homes and neighbourhoods changed beyond recognition, their plans and prospects for the future defeated; at work they found that employers hesitated to apply to the immigrant worker the standards of discipline and competence required of the native-born worker; they began to hear, as time went by, more and more voices which told them that they were now the unwanted.
On top of this, they now learn that a one-way privilege is to be established by Act of Parliament: a law, which cannot, and is not intended, to operate to protect them or redress their grievances, is to be enacted to give the stranger, the disgruntled and the agent provocateur the power to pillory them for their private actions.
In the hundreds upon hundreds of letters I received when I last spoke on this subject two or three months ago, there was one striking feature which was largely new and which I find ominous. All Members of Parliament are used to the typical anonymous correspondent; but what surprised and alarmed me was the high proportion of ordinary, decent, sensible people, writing a rational and often well-educated letter, who believed that they had to omit their address because it was dangerous to have committed themselves to paper to a Member of Parliament agreeing with the views I had expressed, and that they would risk either penalties or reprisals if they were known to have done so.
The sense of being a persecuted minority which is growing among ordinary English people in the areas of the country which are affected is something that those without direct experience can hardly imagine.
I am going to allow just one of those hundreds of people to speak for me. She did give her name and address, which I have detached from the letter which I am about to read. She was writing from Northumberland about something which is happening at this moment in my own constituency:
Eight years ago in a respectable street in Wolverhampton a house was sold to a Negro. Now only one white (a woman old-age pensioner) lives there. This is her story. She lost her husband and both her sons in the war. So she turned her seven-roomed house, her only asset, into a boarding house. She worked hard and did well, paid off her mortgage and began to put something by for her old age. Then the immigrants moved in. With growing fear, she saw one house after another taken over. The quiet streets became a place of noise and confusion. Regretfully, her white tenants moved out.
The day after the last one left, she was awakened at 7 a.m. by two Negroes who wanted to use her phone to contact their employer. When she refused, as she would have refused any stranger at such an hour, she was abused and feared she would have been attacked but for the chain on her door. Immigrant families have tried to rent rooms in her house, but she always refused. Her little store of money went, and after paying her rates, she had less than £2 per week. She went to apply for a rate reduction and was seen by a young girl, who on hearing she had a seven-roomed house, suggested she should let part of it. When she said the only people she could get were Negroes, the girl said “racial prejudice won't get you anywhere in this country”. So she went home.
The telephone is her lifeline. Her family pay the bill, and help her out as best they can. Immigrants have offered to buy her house—at a price which the prospective landlord would be able to recover from his tenants in weeks, or at most in a few months. She is becoming afraid to go out. Windows are broken. She finds excreta pushed through her letterbox. When she goes to the shops, she is followed by children, charming, wide-grinning piccaninnies. They cannot speak English, but one word they know. “Racialist”, they chant. When the new Race Relations Bill is passed, this woman is convinced she will go to prison. And is she so wrong? I begin to wonder.
The other dangerous delusion from which those who are wilfully or otherwise blind to realities suffer, is summed up in the word “integration”.
To be integrated into a population means to become for all practical purposes indistinguishable from its other members. Now, at all times, where there are marked physical differences, especially of colour, integration is difficult though, over a period, not impossible. There are among the Commonwealth immigrants have come to live here in the last fifteen years or so, many thousands whose wish and purpose is to be integrated and whose every thought and endeavour is bent in that direction. But to imagine that such a thing enters the heads of a great and growing majority of immigrants and their descendants is a ludicrous misconception, and a dangerous one to boot.
We are on the verge of here of a change. Hitherto it has been force of circumstance and of background which has rendered the very idea of integration inaccessible to the greater part of the immigrant population—that they never conceived or intended such a thing, and that their numbers and physical concentration meant the pressures towards integration which normally bear upon any small minority did not operate. Now we are seeing the growth of positive forces acting against integration, of vested interests in the preservation and sharpening of racial and religious differences, with a view to the exercise of actual domination, first over fellow immigrants and then over the rest of the population.
The cloud no bigger than a man's hand, that can so rapidly overcast the sky, has been visible recently in Wolverhampton and has shown signs of spreading quickly. The words I am about to use, verbatim as they appeared in the local press on 17 February, are not mine, but those of a Labour Member of Parliament who is a Minister in the present Government.
The Sikh communities' campaign to maintain customs inappropriate in Britain is much to be regretted. Working in Britain, particularly in the public services, they should be prepared to accept the terms and conditions of their employment. To claim special communal rights (or should one say rites?) leads to a dangerous fragmentation within society. This communalism is a canker: whether practised by one colour or another it is to be strongly condemned.
All credit to John Stonehouse for having had the insight to perceive that, and the courage to say it.
For these dangerous and divisive elements the legislation proposed in the Race Relations Bill is the very pabulum they need to flourish. Here is the means of showing that the immigrant communities can organize to consolidate their members, to agitate and campaign against their fellow citizens, and to overawe and dominate the rest with the legal weapons which the ignorant and the ill-informed have provided.
As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see “the River Tiber foaming with much blood”.
That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect.
Indeed, it has all but come. In numerical terms, it will be of American proportions long before the end of the century. Only resolute and urgent action will avert it even now.
Whether there will be the public will to demand and obtain that action, I do not know.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H »

Hi Eric

Back in the day the big taboo subject was God and Darwinism, then it was the attitude to Sex in all its forms, and today its Race & Immigration.

Almost every Politician evades the questions the vast majority of the public discuss amongst themselves, and want answers to.
'Candidates of all parties should take great care when discussing what can be a sensitive and even inflammatory issue.
They are only sensitive and inflammatory because instead of reasoned debate & discussion, we have rumour and scaremongering fueling fears, be they real or imaginary.

In addition the 24hour news media doesn't help in many cases by reporting on 'minor' local inncidents/reports/speeches and making them national. This in addition to the vacumn of reasoned debate gives the impression that the country is going to the dogs.

Watching the US news channels, the situation is not much different at its core, in the US.

Regards

Andy H
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

Powell was a highly educated and qualified man. He was also extremely charming and kind. I remember him quite well as he lived near a schoolfriend of mine in London and we would often speak on the No 11 bus. He was not a racist. He was a realist. In fact, he was horrified to find himself portrayed as some sort of fascist icon when all he was saying was the truth as he and many others saw it...and as it has largely come to pass. It is not just a British problem. It is a problem throughout North-Western Europe. However, in expending energy on worrying about the demographic colonisation of our homelands by people who might be inconvenient but not much of a threat in real terms, given their inability to make a go of their own homelands since we left, we lose sight of our real enemies, don't we? Who is it who runs the circus? Who sold us out? Who is selling what's left out to the Chinese by allowing them to invest in our credit-related debts? Who's pulling the strings? Well, it sure ain't a load of unruly recent arrivals living in horrendous municipal housing, is it? Oh sure, they make life unpleasant for their neighbours and leech off social security, which is annoying, but the amounts they pocket are nothing compared to the money skimmed off our economies by the bankers and financiers, that 3% of the world's population who control 97% of the world's wealth!

PK
pzrmeyer2

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

Andy H wrote:Hi Eric

Back in the day the big taboo subject was God and Darwinism, then it was the attitude to Sex in all its forms, and today its Race & Immigration.

Almost every Politician evades the questions the vast majority of the public discuss amongst themselves, and want answers to.
'Candidates of all parties should take great care when discussing what can be a sensitive and even inflammatory issue.
They are only sensitive and inflammatory because instead of reasoned debate & discussion, we have rumour and scaremongering fueling fears, be they real or imaginary.

In addition the 24hour news media doesn't help in many cases by reporting on 'minor' local inncidents/reports/speeches and making them national. This in addition to the vacumn of reasoned debate gives the impression that the country is going to the dogs.

Watching the US news channels, the situation is not much different at its core, in the US.

Regards

Andy H
Hi Andy
Sadly, you're right; the siuaton is the same here in the US. No one is willing to state the obvious for fear of the "r" word.
Cameron was praised by the head of the Equality Commission for tackling the issue of immigration in a non-racial way
Equlity Commission...LOL! that about says it all: Orwell would be proud of the doublespeak.
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Andy H
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Post by Andy H »

Observer wrote:
to remove Nigel Hastilow as a prospective Conservative candidate for declaring that Powell was 'right'.
but it seems that what Hastilow actually said was "that many people say "Enoch was right".

So he makes a statement about what other people are telling him and he's given the chop :shock:

Regards
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.

And so as I patrol in the valley of the shadow of the tricolour I must fear evil, For I am but mortal and mortals can only die
pzrmeyer2

Post by pzrmeyer2 »

and to your llast point, Andy...
They Made Me an Offer I Had to Refuse

Nigel Hastilow, Blog, November 6, 2007
Amazing how powerful some names can be. Last Friday I mentioned Enoch Powell and suddenly all hell broke loose.
In an article supporting Tory leader David Cameron’s remarks on how uncontrolled immigration would change the country, I mentioned that many people say “Enoch was right”.
I have discovered that this is enough, still, 39 years after the controversial speech which undid him politically, to cause outrage.
A Sunday newspaper put it on the front page and said I was an embarrassment to Cameron. It quoted various people calling for me to be sacked as Conservative parliamentary candidate for Halesowen and Rowley Regis.
The story was duly followed up by the BBC on Sunday. It must have been an exceedingly quiet news day for this piece of flammed-up nonsense from one Sunday paper to be turned into the scandal of the day.
But that’s what happened. I was having lunch with my wife, sister and brother-in-law when Councillor Mary Docker called to say she’d had “The Observer” on wanting to know if I was going to be sacked.
Mary, a Sandwell councillor and chairman of the Halesowen and Rowley Regis Conservatives, was a star. She supported me and said she agreed with what I’d said.
Indeed, she said all I was doing was expressing the views of the people who live in my constituency. That was a good thing for a politician to do so no, she would not be asking for me to resign.
Then the Conservative Party press office came on to me, closely followed by Caroline Spelman herself.
Caroline, the Chairman of the party, didn’t mince her words. She was not happy. My political career was on the line.
I was summoned to meet her on Sunday at 2pm.
I turned the phone off and tried to enjoy a fireworks display with, among others, another senior Conservative.
They said they agreed with everything I’d said; they were just very glad it was me saying it, not them.
I didn’t sleep much on Saturday night and by 4am I was checking out
“The Observer’s” front page via the internet. There I was in all my embarrassing glory.
I had made no mention of race. I said Powell was right to warn that unlimited immigration would change the country dramatically.
But “The Observer” injected race into the article in such a way as to imply that I was a racist who endorsed Enoch Powell’s racism.
Not true but, as some journalists say, never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
I am still stunned that “The Observer” and the BBC considered this a story at all. It’s not as if I’m a big-wig or that I said anything particularly controversial.
Still, the story had legs and by breakfast time it was on the telly where Labour Cabinet Minister Peter Hain offered up the ideal sound bite for the story to run and run.
I had, he claimed, exposed the racist underbelly of the Conservative Party.
Utter nonsense but a good quote to keep the story going. Along with the news that I was about to be carpeted by the party chairman.
Then various members of the Shadow Cabinet condemned me in public as well so that by the time I arrived at Caroline Spelman’s home in Dorridge, near Solihull, I was pretty sure I was a condemned man.
Caroline herself was charming. She explained how sensitive the immigration issue was and how dangerous it was for the party to be considered racist.
She said that an experienced journalist like me must realise the risks involved in evoking the name Enoch Powell. The Tories strived so hard to avoid being called “the nasty party” any more and raising the spectre of “rivers of blood” was really too much.
I explained I had not written about race but about numbers. That immigration was a problem because Britain could not accommodate more and more people from overseas.
Then she cut to the chase. My political career would survive if I signed a press release drawn up by the party’s chief spin doctor, Andy Coulson.
It included this sentence: “Although I did not—and do not—support Enoch Powell’s ‘Rivers of Blood’ comments, I accept that some of the wording of my column was incredibly stupid.”
It went on to talk about the importance of choosing one’s language with care and apologising for any upset.
I was also required to submit any future articles for the Express & Star (or anywhere else) to the Conservative campaign headquarters before submitting them to the editor.
It was this, even more than the “incredibly stupid” line, that I couldn’t stomach. If I’d agreed to this I could have stayed on as the candidate for Halesowen and Rowley Regis.
I was sorely tempted. You don’t lightly throw away all those years working for the party and an opportunity to become an MP.
But I felt that if I were to agree to these demands I would lose not just my honour and integrity but my credibility as both a journalist and politician.
That’s why I resigned. We agreed the licence I have as a journalist to speak freely is not compatible with a politician’s responsibility to stay “on message”.
Caroline was decent enough to say on the BBC last night that it was the honourable thing to do.
I am surprised the Conservative Party is so intimidated by the BBC and
“The Observer” that it must toe the metropolitan line at all costs.
But that’s apparently how politics works these days as I have discovered the hard way.
What has kept me going, though, and gratified me is the enormous number of messages of support I have received from the constituency, the Black Country, Britain and, indeed, from around the world.
I truly believe that if this country is to have a brighter future, we must accept the need, and embrace the right of everyone who lives here, to be free to express their concerns.
Without it destroying their political careers as it seems to have done mine.

where are our regular multiculti PC ubertypes like Andre and Sid when you need them?
sid guttridge
on "time out"
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Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am

Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Guys,

Enoch Powell was a much maligned man.

The former leader of the Labour Party, and a definite left winger within it, Michael Foot, knew Powell in Parliament for some thirtyyears and always vigorously defended him against charges of racism.

Amid all the deliberate misrepresentation of his so-called "Rivers of Blood"speech, it is often forgotten that it was Enoch Powell who raised the issue of British maltreatment of detainees during the Kenyan Mau Mau in the late 1950s.

He was also a health minister when the the first large numbers of New Commonwealth doctors and nurses were brought into the UK to expand the National Health Service in the 1950s, so he was not, in principle, opposed to non-white immigration.

I only know one person who personally met Powell. He was a Catholic consituent of Powell's in Northern Ireland and was mightily impressed by him.

Powell has been dishonestly treated by both the ideologues of the extreme left and the crude racists of the extreme right. Both maliciously misinterpret the man for their own ends.

Cheers,

Sid.
Paddy Keating

Post by Paddy Keating »

It is just another example of the moneybags' puppets trying desperately to keep the lid on the overheating cauldron because they know that if we finally decide that enough is enough, a lot of people might receive some harsh lessons in why we were masters of the world for so long.

They are running scared. We live in an environment where our leaders are terrified of their own people. That's why the official reactions at Seattle and Genoa were so violent. That's why there is so much official hysteria regarding any indication of national socialist renaissance. And that is what the "War on Terror" is really all about. It's not about protecting us from Islamic fundamentalist fanatics but more about creating quasi-legal precedents aimed at suspending our hardwon civil liberties and rights in order to allow the people who have been ruling and robbing us to protect themselves from us when the casserole finally blows its lid off.

Blaming immigrants for our ills is all very well but has it occurred to the public bar demagogues who rant and rave about dusky families giving the truth to Powell's visions that the real enemy is not to be found in immigrant ghettos but in the fashionable parts of town, living in large, expensive houses filled with the proceeds of decades of genteel looting and pillaging?

Maybe it has but many of the losers who claim to stand for the rights and interests of the indigenous peoples of the North find it easier to pick softer targets, don't they? They know that the minute they focus on the real enemy, their days as wannabe Führers will be radically numbered because the real enemy is a bit more powerful than some poor bastard from some godforsaken hole of a country trying to improve his circumstances by doing the filthy, demeaning jobs we are all too "superior" to do.

Most of the nationalist groups in Europe suffer from bad leadership by people with whom a majority of educated and influential potential supporters simply cannot identify. This focus on outmoded racist notions of identity is one of the things that really must be terminated. This is not the 1930s. Our society is as ethnically diverse as that of the Roman and other empires of antiquity. The "white power skinhead" image needs to be buried for once and for all and the ranks need to contain faces that reflect the make-up of our society.

The day that we see intelligent, presentable, articulate people of the calibre - and social standing - of Sir Oswald Mosley coming to the fore in "nationalist" parties and movements is the day we will be treated to the sort of official reaction that will make the murderous excesses of the police in Genoa look tame. They are there, in the wings, but for the time being, they remain in the wings because "The People", disgruntled as they might be, are simply not sufficiently angry yet.

It will take something fairly major to cause the sort of anger that will create the necessary vacuum. Perhaps the knock-on effect of sub-prime lending in conjunction with selling the consequent debt to an increasingly militant and expansionist China will prove to be the neo-conservative, ultra-capitalist straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back, the "Deal Too Far", so to speak.

However, movements led and staffed by benighted morons who don't just hate Blacks and Asians but also hate Whites who don't happen to be White Anglo-Saxon Protestants are not really the kind of standard-bearers needed in the coming battle to restore the social and philosophical order and justice we need in order to be able to describe ourselves as civilised and progressive.

Powell was indeed right but only because we allowed the corrupt philosophy of "multiculturalism" to gain a hold over our attitudes to incomers when we should have been insisting that they become part of our societies in Europe rather than adjuncts to them. That is one thing our American cousins got right: when you immigrate to the USA, you become an American by default...or you starve on the margins of society. It is all very to say that "these people shouldn't be here" but they are here and it is time to accept that reality and set about reaching out to those who want to integrate in order to recruit them to the common cause of building a new society and confronting the real enemies.

Once we have done this, we can think about deportation of undesirables, enforced renunciation of incompatible religious beliefs, eugenics and all of the other measures required in order to turn our society into the kind of anodyne environment in which the stumbling majority flourishes. Those of us, the "revolutionaries", will probably have to emigrate because we will quickly come to be considered anti-social ourselves...

PK
Last edited by Paddy Keating on Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Cott Tiger »

pzrmeyer2 wrote:
where are our regular multiculti PC ubertypes like Andre and Sid when you need them?
I just love these labels you keep inventing for me Erik.

Anyway. I find it absurd that prospective members of parliament cannot talk openly about immigration. It is one, if not THE, biggest political issues in the UK at the moment and this shackling of the debate is extremely worrying and symptomatic of how the media and all the mainstream political parties here handle this thorny and sensitive issue.

That said, I think Hastilow is stretching our credulity when he states “I had not written about race but about numbers”. Either that, or he is incredibly stupid not to recognise that talking about Powell’s infamous speech inevitably ignites the race debate. Also, Hastilow is being a tad disingenuous when he claims he stated that it was only his constituents that agreed with Powell, as he himself clearly remarked “he was right”. I am not saying he shouldn’t be allowed to state that, but why backtrack?

I was however, pleasantly surprised to read that Hastilow took a principled stance and refused to disown his own opinions simply in order to be allowed back into the Conservative fold.

One thing is for certain. We need to hold an honest and open debate on this issue – albeit not on this forum!

Regards,

André
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Well Sid, you can make that TWO now. I met Enoch Powell three times here in NI, and having met many local politicans here in my time, and several UK mainland types - I can honestly say he was one of the most intelligent people I've EVER met. He's one of those people that the average punter likes to label "The best PM we never had"...but that is selling him far too short. People contributing to this thread might for example want to scope out his WARTIME career in Military Intelligence on the Middle East to check out his formative influences, and see exactly how racist he was...or rather wasn't.
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi Phylo,

It looks as though Enoch's powers reach beyond the grave. Have you noticed the near unanimity on him amongst some very unusual bed-fellows here?

Cheers,

Sid.
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Post by Prit »

I don't think that anyone can deny that Powell was a very clever, highly educated, personally brave man.

You can find much/most of his 'rivers of blood' speech here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_of_Blood_speech

Many aspects of what he said, such as his rough estimates of numbers of immigrants in coming years, and the anecdotes that he used as the basis of his speech, are not controversial. Most of the trouble has raged around this quote from Virgil's Aeneid (it should be remembered that he was a classical scholar):
As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding. Like the Roman, I seem to see 'the River Tiber foaming with much blood'. That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect. Indeed, it has all but come. In numerical terms, it will be of American proportions long before the end of the century.
I'm not sure I can agree with the proposition that this prediction has come true.

There is nothing new about immigration and mass migration, nor about ultimately doomed attempts to hold it back. The pace of migration around the world today is probably faster than in previous eras, but surely that reflects the fact that all change happens much faster today than in previous generations.

Right or wrong, mass migration isn't going to stop.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Prit, everything ELSE he predicted has come true....

Sid, he's like Edgar Cayce - maligned by HALF the people who've ever had an opinion on him....but after he died, time has proved his remarkably right! ;-)

As for immigration and rivers of blood...One of the VERY suppressed events of the last decade was the anti-islamic backlash throughout the US and in parts of the UK in the days following 9/11. I only ever saw compiled figures on the backlash once....it was clamped down on - the knowledge of it, i mean - but they were quite frightening...

The confrontation thing is just a matter of time; ALL the factors are there, all it needs is a proper spark. And those have come and gone SO many times over the last few years, each time ratchetting up and up. One more Tube bomb....

Two Moslem extremists walk into an Army Surplus Store. One picks up a rucksack and says..."Does my bomb look big in this?"....
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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Post by sid guttridge »

Hi phylo,

There was some backlash against Muslims, but the salient point is that it was limited.

If you have figures that tell us otherwise, please bring them out instead of hiding behind conspiracy theory, or, alternatively, justify the conspiracy theory with some evidence.

The other thing, of course, is that anyone attacking Muslims randomly in these circumstances is a moron who would disgrace any society, just as random suicide bombers do.

Cheers,

Sid.
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Post by phylo_roadking »

Sid, I saw the reports some six years ago, If I could produce exact figures now I would. It was not "limited"....coverage of it was limited. NOT the same thing as you well know.

It doesn't matter to the victims if their attacks are morons or not, doesn't it? Not a very useful defence in the event of violence that, to malign your attackers' intelligence....usually it just gives him time to hit you some more!
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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