Ju 390 NYC flight

[Troy Tempest]

Hi everyone, I've posted this question on a few sites now, trying to get a definitive yay or nay! On an IMDb board, a poster whose opinion I respect a lot, maintains the flight of FAGr 5s Ju 390 from Mont-de-Marson to 12 miles off the coast of NY is mythical or proably mythical. I have two books that mention the 32 hour flight, but neither provide any source, so does anyone here have any facts that can prove/disprove the story of that flight from Jan 1944 at all?

Troy

[redcoat]

I have two books that mention the 32 hour flight, but neither provide any source, so does anyone here have any facts that can prove/disprove the story of that flight from Jan 1944 at all?

Troy

It probably never took place.

Here's an article written by the poster 'robert', an expert on aviation matters who has my greatest respect, from the History Channel Forum

Although the supposed flight of the Ju 390 V1 to within several miles of the NY coast is mentioned in several books by reputable authors, there is convincing evidence that it never actually happened.

The flight was first mentioned not by a German author, but by Englishman William Green in his Warplanes of the Third Reich, published in 1970. It is not mentioned in any German records or accounts, contempory or otherwise, and Green apparently got his information from a single Prisoner of War report conducted in 1944.

A new book, very well-researched, has appeared in Germany, Die großen Dessauer: Junkers Ju 89, 90, 290, 390. Die Geschichte einer Flugzeugfamilie (English translation: "The Big Ones from Dessau...History of an Aircraft Family") by Karl Kössler and Günter Ott, which examines the story of the Ju 390 flight, and effectively discounts it (excuse the occasional clumsiness of the translation of the German text):

"The same way not counting are assertions in the literature about an allegedly executed transatlantic flight nearly to New York, for which no reference can be found, like for an action with the FAGr 5 ("Long-range Reconnoissance Wing Nr. 5", the unit that employed the Ju 290 as a reconnaissance aircraft) in Mont-de-Marsan.

The fairy tale about the New York flight obviously started its tour through literature from England. It is first to be found in an intelligence report from August 11th, 1944, composed by the questioning of captured members of the German armed forces. A prisoner, who claimed having been photo assistant in Mont-de-Marsan, stated during his interview that 'a Ju 390 was with the FAGr 5 from January 6th, 1944, for about four weeks for trials. After some short-distance flights, a successful reconnaissance flight was made until a point in a distance of nearly 20 km off the American coast north of New York. Pictures were brought back, showing the coast in that distance.'
Another prisoner, in the same report, said that the Ju 390 'had an endurance of 32 hours'.

Nearly literally, those only as fibs describable 'evidences' are to be found in literature, overtaken without any criticism. During the mentioned time, the Ju 390 V1 eventually was in Prague-Ruzyn, to where it was brought back according to Pancherz' flight book [a flight captain employed with tests of the Ju 390 prototype] on November 26th, 1943, without delay after the mentioned show before the eyes of Hitler in Insterburg (town and airport near Hitler´s headquarter in East Prussia, RT).

While in Prague, during the following time continuously test flights took place, so on Nov. 30th, Dec. 2nd and 3rd (flight to Merseburg and return on Dec. 10th), on 17th and again on 30th and 31st. Then on 3rd, 5th, 7th and 8th, January 1944. In the time between Jan. 17th and 23rd, under share of the Ju 290 factory number 0151 CE + YZ, the in-flight refuelling trials mentioned earlier (in the book, RT) were performed. The afterwards interrupted trials were filmed from the escorting Ju 88 V7 GU + AG, with Flight Captain Beyer on the control stick. More trials were made during February and March, but no flight to Mont-de-Marsan. If so, for what?

Even if the airplane, at any time, when no recordings appear in the existing flight books, had been flown there by a Luftwaffe crew, for a flight to New York the V1 never would have been capable. Do not forget, the fuselage became longer by the two connection pieces but did not gain additional stability. Something similar is to be said about the quickly produced center wing section. This means, a take-off weight of 72 tons, as it was required by the amount of fuel necessary for a long-distance flight like this, for the V1 was far beyond any possibility. For the trials, the maximum weight for take-off numbered not more than 38 tons, having an empty weight of 28 tons! If you compare this to the Ju 290 A-7, with a take-off weight of 45 tons, it is clear how far the Ju 390 V1 could fly at all.

And about the likely use of the V2 for this flight, in any case it could not have been completed before September or October 1944. But FAGr 5, following up the Allied invasion, already had given up its base at Mont-de-Marsan on August 20th. and returned to Germany. [It is very doubtful that a Ju 390 V2 ever existed. One page before Kössler and Ott argue that it was nearly completed during June 1944 and flight tests should begin at end of September 1944, and they give a reference for that]. So, also the V2 cannot be counted for a completely useless flight like this. Once more, an alleged 'fact' turns out to totally be a literature tale.'

The flight is not listed in any of the records of the unit that supposedly made it, the aircraft in question was nowhere near France at the time the flight was supposedly made, and the aircraft itself simply did not have the capacity to attempt such a flight (and could not have got off the ground if it did).

The prisoner who was the only source for the claim was pretty obviously trying to mislead his interrogators - and did an excellent job of it.

(Many thanks to "Romantic Technofreak" for bringing this info to my attention, and providing the translation

[Lorenz]

Hi everyone, I've posted this question on a few sites now, trying to get a definitive yay or nay! On an IMDb board, a poster whose opinion I respect a lot, maintains the flight of FAGr 5s Ju 390 from Mont-de-Marson to 12 miles off the coast of NY is mythical or proably mythical. I have two books that mention the 32 hour flight, but neither provide any source, so does anyone here have any facts that can prove/disprove the story of that flight from Jan 1944 at all?
Troy

Pure, unadulterated fantasy. This is one of the most discussed WW II aviation myths of all time. Use Google and/or check the Axis History Forum and 12 O'Clock High web sites where it has been discussed ad nauseam. The origin of the myth is an Air Ministry ADI(K) P/W interrogation of a Luftwaffe Unteroffizier weasel who told the interrogators that he belonged to FAGr. 5 at Bordeaux-Marignac and worked in the base photo lab. He even claimed the 290 brought back photos of NYC fully lit up in violation of wartime blackout laws. The Brits jumped on it and carried out a thorough investigation and found that it was total B.S. No such flight ever occurred, although there were wartime discussions along that line in 1943. See the following recent books for full details:

Bukowski, Helmut and Fritz Müller. Junkers Ju 90: Ein Dessauer Riese – Erprobung und Einsatz der Junkers Ju 90 bis Ju 290 (Berlin, 1995).
Kössler, Karl and Günther Ott. Die großen Dessauer: Junkers Ju 89, Ju 90, Ju 290, Ju 390 – Die Geschichte einer Flugzeugfamilie (Berlin, 1993).
Neitzel, Sönke. Der Einsatz der deutschen Luftwaffe über dem Atlantik und der Nordsee 1939-1945 (Bonn, 1995).

--Lorenz

[Troy Tempest]

Thanks redcoat and lorenz! You have confirmed what I also gleaned over on the Axis History Forum site. I've believed it all these years, but research comes through! I have suitably grovelled to the poster on the IMDb site who prodded me into this quest. He has always claimed it a myth, whereas I always believed it.

Troy

[Lorenz]

Thanks redcoat and lorenz! You have confirmed what I also gleaned over on the Axis History Forum site. I've believed it all these years, but research comes through! I have suitably grovelled to the poster on the IMDb site who prodded me into this quest. He has always claimed it a myth, whereas I always believed it.
Troy

Don't grovel, Troy, for then we all must grovel! Literally everyone believed the story until the early 1990's, especially those of us who go back to the late 60's/early 70's when the story first surfaced. Whatever Wm. Green said was treated as the word of God because he was the foremost English language "expert" on the Luftwaffe and had been writing articles on the subject in RAF Flying Review, Aeroplane and Air Pictorial since the mid-1950's. His word ruled. I have many of the early RAF Flying Reviews from that period and most of what was being published on the Luftwaffe would give us all a good laught today.

--Lorenz

[Troy Tempest]

I'm up for a good laugh lorenz - can you post some of them here?

Troy

[Lorenz]

I'm up for a good laugh lorenz - can you post some of them here?
Troy

I'd love to Troy, but it would take hours and hours to dig them out of the bound volumes that are stored in hermetically sealed boxes in my garage, and I'm afraid I just don't have that sort of time available. I'll put it on my list and perhaps in the coming weeks I can find the extra time.

Cheers,

--Lorenz

[Simon_G]

[It is very doubtful that a Ju 390 V2 ever existed. One page before Kössler and Ott argue that it was nearly completed during June 1944 and flight tests should begin at end of September 1944, and they give a reference for that]. So, also the V2 cannot be counted for a completely useless flight like this. Once more, an alleged 'fact' turns out to totally be a literature tale.'

Gee, these guys Kossler and Ott really know their stuff don't they ?

[Simon_G]

Here's the two Ju-390 compared side by side after matching their wing chords. Tell me if these are two identical aircraft ?

And about the likely use of the V2 for this flight, in any case it could not have been completed before September or October 1944.

Hardly... All aircraft construction was switched to fighters from May 1944. I would have thought Kossler and Ott knew this ?

The conventional view of the Junkers Ju-390 story holds that only one prototype was ever built, being the Ju-390 V1. This view asserts that the Ju390 V1 was first flown from a dirt airstrip at Merseberg on 20 October 1943, piloted by civilian Flugkapitan Hans Joachim Pancherz and engineer Dipl-Ing Gast.

However there is also an earlier claim that the Ju-390 made it's first flight in August 1943 at the hands of famous Reichlin Test pilot Flugkapitan Hans Werner Lerche at Bernberg.

Indeed neither of the Ju-390 pilots mentioned and Pancherz flew the Ju-390 extensively.... neither was attached to a Luftwaffe unit however Pancherz notes in his log book flying to Cape Town in early 1944.

The conventional view therefore is that the Ju-390V1 was retired from service and flown to Dessau in November 1944 where it was stripped of propellers and sat derelict until destroyed. There are conflicting claims of it's destruction by a US 8th Air Force raid on 16 January 1945 and other claims that it was burned in April 1945 to prevent capture.

Either way it is generally accepted the Ju-390 V1 ended it's career at Dessau in November 1944 and remained derelict until destroyed in 1945. RC+DA appears to have been the aircraft destroyed at Dessau in 1945.

Heres somewhere to learn about the Ju-390:
http://sites.google.com/site/junkersju390/home