Sajer - Fact or Fiction?

Jock · Post by **Jock** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:27 am

Hi all,

Just want to know what peoples opinions of the Forgotten Soldier are...It's quite hotly debated, and I've noticed mentioning it around here is like a dirty word.

Personally, I think it is true, but mabye embelished in some way - I've checked out some of the names of the men who died with him in GD, and none of them are on the German War Graves Commission.

Men who died later in the war I could expect to 'disapear' from the records, so I dont know if that means anything.

Also, getting released by the Allies straight away because his mother was German, and not his father...Can anyone verify the Allies/French did do this in other cases?

Finally, surely there must be some records of him to verify the story...If not from the Wehrmacht, but from the 8 months he served in the French Army after the war.

Hope people enjoy debating this - I'll be interested to hear everyone's point of view. I'd like to finish by saying that whether it is fact or fiction, It's one of my favorite books.

Cheers,

Jock · Post by **Jock** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:19 pm

Heh...

Didnt realise this one had been discussed before, as soon as a month ago...

Feel free to use the topic for its original purpose, or to flame me, I dont care!

Cheers,

Herr Doktor · Post by **Herr Doktor** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:35 pm

Greetings Jock!

Yes, this has been debated here before but I don't mind responding.

In fact, I am re-reading the book again right now! How's that for a coincidence? This book is one of my all time favorites.

Is is real? I don't know for sure, having read some pretty convincing arguments both for and against. I have not done any specific research into Sajer's story, so all I can offer is an opinion... and I'm willing to give Sajer the benefit of the doubt when it comes to questioning the authenticity of his book. Enough of it seems real to me.

Happy reading,

HD

greenhorn · Post by **greenhorn** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:50 am

http://www.feldgrau.com/interview6.html ... iew6.htmlv

Interview with a genuine Großdeutschland tanker 43-45 and 1st Sergeant in the USA Army post war, I'm sure somewhere on the site in reference to the authenticity of the Devil's Guard..... I think he came down on the side that Sajer served.....

I've donned the firefighting suit.... for incoming flames that I've got it arse about face as usual.....

Tom Houlihan · Post by **Tom Houlihan** » Tue Oct 19, 2004 9:55 pm

I just re-read Sajer a few weeks ago. I'm of the opinion that he did serve. Just a feeling, but it's me own opinion, so I'm entitled!

I think the biggest problem was in translation. If it was originally written in French, about the German military, I'll guarantee that there were errors in French about German weapons. Those errors were then compounded translating it into English.

As far as errors of recollection, can everyone here tell me what they had for dinner Tuesday last? I doubt it. That's not derogatory, it's just fact. Condemning a man because he mis-remembered some 30 year old details is a little heavy handed if you ask me.

Frederick L Clemens · Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:45 pm

The author himself has a French-language interview on the internet in which he states that the story is fiction. This was clear enough to me since there are many bogus elements to the story - perhaps the silliest being his claim to have trained on the Stuka before becoming a truck driver. The author seems to have served during the war but the Guy Sajer character is fiction and so is much of the story. Some are satisfied by the "authentic emotions" in the story, but emotions wrapped in fake details don't float my boat.

sigrun · Post by **sigrun** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:35 am

Frederick L Clemens wrote:The author himself has a French-language interview on the internet in which he states that the story is fiction.

Really? URL? Oh? You can't 'remember' the details?

Frederick L Clemens · Post by **Frederick L Clemens** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 8:25 am

Ha, Ha, Sigrun!! The URL is posted in another thread on Sajer in the books section. I can repost it here if you have trouble finding it.

Speaking of memory, it is funny how many times Sajer says "I remember it well" and then gets all the details wrong, like summer instead of winter, left arm versus right arm, bizarre unit designations, etc. Oh boy! A memory like a steel trap!

sigrun · Post by **sigrun** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:56 pm

Frederick L Clemens wrote:Ha, Ha, Sigrun!! The URL is posted in another thread on Sajer in the books section. I can repost it here

If you wouldn't mind? Something qualitatively supportive would present far more convincing an argument than the opinionated rhetoric you'd subjected us to thus far.

Frederick L Clemens · Post by **Frederick L Clemens** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:44 am

Here is the link to the thread where I have posted the interview with Dimitri - author of the Sajer novel - as well as the translations.

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 7859#87859

These are quotes from the author himself but if you believe someone can volunteer for the Stukas and then fly one as part of his training without first going thru months of testing and training on other aircraft....then even the author telling you it is fiction probably won't keep you from believing in Sajer.

JoseFrancis · Post by **JoseFrancis** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:55 pm

Frederick L Clemens wrote:Here is the link to the thread where I have posted the interview with Dimitri - author of the Sajer novel - as well as the translations.

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 7859#87859

These are quotes from the author himself but if you believe someone can volunteer for the Stukas and then fly one as part of his training without first going thru months of testing and training on other aircraft....then even the author telling you it is fiction probably won't keep you from believing in Sajer.

I would like to know where Sajer admits that his book is fiction. I've read the whole interview but I see nowhere where Sajer admits that his book is fiction.

Although I find the "date of his birth" argument quite convincing, I do not see anywhere as to when Sajer says his book is fiction.

Could you point out the exact place as to where he says that his book is fiction?

Uli · Post by **Uli** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:12 am

I first read Sajer's book some thirty years ago, read it again some twenty years ago, and still believe the man and the story real. Does anyone yet know the truth, or shall we argue here to eternity?

I say the story is real, even if Guy Sajer is not.

Near the end of his tale, a starving, emaciated Sajer describes contact with (and I'm relying on twenty-year-old memories here) "jolly, crimson-faced British soldiers...." and "large, confident, well-fed American troops."

I don't know. But it's little details like these which make me think Sajer was real, his tale authentic. I don't know why, but I'd say he's the real deal.

Remember the beginning of the book, when Sajer's before Moscow, in the dead of winter, 1941.... And what did he say about the infamous Russian cold? (again, I'm relying on twenty-year-old memories): "Standing alongside our trucks, in waist-deep snow and in frigid temperatures, I wanted to cry in absolute frustration and bitterness."

Anyone who's ever been that desperate knows the feeling. Either Sajer experienced the Russian winter (the Russians themselves admitted that the winter of 1941 was their coldest in forty years), or he's a genius for story concoction. After reading his story, I truly FELT the Russian cold. At any rate, at the point in which his story was first published on a wide scale, imagine the shivers that must've gone through the surviving members of those Germans who'd survived the Eastern Front and that first near-victorious winter before Moscow. Imagine how many 50-year-old German men must've read the book and initially explained to their wives in a moment of reflection: "That first winter in Russia was like nothing you've ever imagined...."

If Sajer was a fraud, then--like most frauds--he was a master.