Canever was a Russian offfensive planned for July 1941 cxalled " Summer Storm2 , this was to be launched again Germany in July 1941.
barbarossa "got in first" and the Russian invasion of eastern Poland was never launched.
I am told that Russian forces were withi two weks of attacking when Hitler launched Barbarosa.
Can anyone shed any light on this , its all news to me and I can't honestly stand over a word of it.
Thanks in davance , and if this is a tall tale I apologise in davance for wasting time.
Russian offensive.
Moderator: sniper1shot
Russian offensive.
" Life , to be sure is nothing much to loose ; But young men think it is , and we were young . "
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
Russian offensive 1941
I have read some previous threads related to the pre-emptive strike theory and found, to my surprise, that most of this forum correspondents consider the Soviet plans to attack Germany real – or at least likely.
Only few seem to agree with Qvist that “Suvorov's speculative fiction has been thoroughly debunked again and again and again on this forum and elsewhere” – a reference to Suvorov being the first one to advocate the theory.
I have always counted myself amont the latter. I fully share Nickolay’s amusement when reading that Suvorov is “a scholar”. But than, I realised that the man might have compromised the very idea of Soviet aggressive plans by his own incompetence, bias and Forsyth-like style.
There are a number of items published recently which very seriously contemplate the possibility of Soviet strike. Joe Cleere has already mentioned “Soviet Plans for Offensive War in 1940-1941” [in:] The International History Review XXV, (December 2003), pp. 818-865, militaryhistorywriter has noted “Stalin's Other War: Soviet Grand Strategy, 1939-1941” by Albert L. Weeks, and Matt L mentioned “Stalin's War of Extermination 1941-1945” by Joachim Hoffmann. Today I have learnt that there are also serious Russian scholars who tend to embrace the theory: V. D. Danilov, “Stalinskya strategia natchala voyny. Plany i relanost’”, [in:] Otyetchestvennaya Istoria 1995/3, pp. 33-44; I. A. Gorkov, “Gotoval li Stalin upryezhdayustchii udar protiv Gitlera v 1941 godu”, [in:] Novaya i Novyeeschaya Istoria 1993/3. pp. 29-45; I. A. Gorkov, “Krieml. Stavka. Gienshtab”, Tver 1995; I. A. Gorkov, J. N. Siomin, “O kharakterie voyenno-operativnykh planov SSSR nakanunye Vielikoy Otechestvennoy Voyny”, [in:] Voyna i Politika 1939-1945, Moscow 1999, pp. 280-301; V. N. Kisielov, “Upriamye fakty natchala voyny”, [in:] Voyenno Istoricheski Zhurnal 1992/2, pp. 9-17; M. Mielitiukhov, “Upusthennyi shans Stalina. Sovetsky Soyuz i barba za Ievropu 1939-1941”, Moscow 2000, pp. 409-478. The Russian authors listed do not agree either as to specific dates (though June 12 is usually listed as the first preliminary target) nor line-up nor directions of the offensive.
In fairness, one has to say there are quite recent publications which claim that events which substantiated the Soviet Strike theory (esp. the war games played early 1941) actully prove something to the contrary, namely that the USSR decided to build-up a smart defensive strategy (Thunder on the Dnepr by Bryan Fugate).
Having said all this, I must admit I am gradually getting converted from “total rubbish” to “maybe, who knows” position.
Only few seem to agree with Qvist that “Suvorov's speculative fiction has been thoroughly debunked again and again and again on this forum and elsewhere” – a reference to Suvorov being the first one to advocate the theory.
I have always counted myself amont the latter. I fully share Nickolay’s amusement when reading that Suvorov is “a scholar”. But than, I realised that the man might have compromised the very idea of Soviet aggressive plans by his own incompetence, bias and Forsyth-like style.
There are a number of items published recently which very seriously contemplate the possibility of Soviet strike. Joe Cleere has already mentioned “Soviet Plans for Offensive War in 1940-1941” [in:] The International History Review XXV, (December 2003), pp. 818-865, militaryhistorywriter has noted “Stalin's Other War: Soviet Grand Strategy, 1939-1941” by Albert L. Weeks, and Matt L mentioned “Stalin's War of Extermination 1941-1945” by Joachim Hoffmann. Today I have learnt that there are also serious Russian scholars who tend to embrace the theory: V. D. Danilov, “Stalinskya strategia natchala voyny. Plany i relanost’”, [in:] Otyetchestvennaya Istoria 1995/3, pp. 33-44; I. A. Gorkov, “Gotoval li Stalin upryezhdayustchii udar protiv Gitlera v 1941 godu”, [in:] Novaya i Novyeeschaya Istoria 1993/3. pp. 29-45; I. A. Gorkov, “Krieml. Stavka. Gienshtab”, Tver 1995; I. A. Gorkov, J. N. Siomin, “O kharakterie voyenno-operativnykh planov SSSR nakanunye Vielikoy Otechestvennoy Voyny”, [in:] Voyna i Politika 1939-1945, Moscow 1999, pp. 280-301; V. N. Kisielov, “Upriamye fakty natchala voyny”, [in:] Voyenno Istoricheski Zhurnal 1992/2, pp. 9-17; M. Mielitiukhov, “Upusthennyi shans Stalina. Sovetsky Soyuz i barba za Ievropu 1939-1941”, Moscow 2000, pp. 409-478. The Russian authors listed do not agree either as to specific dates (though June 12 is usually listed as the first preliminary target) nor line-up nor directions of the offensive.
In fairness, one has to say there are quite recent publications which claim that events which substantiated the Soviet Strike theory (esp. the war games played early 1941) actully prove something to the contrary, namely that the USSR decided to build-up a smart defensive strategy (Thunder on the Dnepr by Bryan Fugate).
Having said all this, I must admit I am gradually getting converted from “total rubbish” to “maybe, who knows” position.