behblc wrote:It has been said that a lot of water had passed under the bridge between the last " elections" which were held in Germany and July 44.
Hitler's last outing to the ballot box was in a one party state , the election prior to that he got 43% of the vote.
Popular , yes but the german people as in all dictatorships knew what the party wanted them to know nothing more.
Would the majority of Germans , given the truth have waged war in Europe , I don't think so.
The treason mentioned was against a goverment which was criminal in nature , was murdering its own people and against a leader who had totally and completely broken his oath of office long before 1939.
For me the treason was done by Hitler and his party not by Erwin Rommel and not by Claus Von Stauffenburg.
Given the potential treasons involved I think in my opinion Hilter's dwarfed those of the officers who acted against him.
That the landser in Russia might have felt let down yes , but when all is balanced up who was the greater of the two traitors, Hitler who had no loyality to the German People or Men who knew that for the National good Hitler and his gang had to go to allow Germany to have any chance of surival.
Bursting the Rommel bubble!
Moderator: Commissar D, the Evil
Re: Popular .
" Life , to be sure is nothing much to loose ; But young men think it is , and we were young . "
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
All right folks -- here's who really burst Rommel's bubble -- Charley Fox.
He's the pilot who straffed Rommel's staff car on 17 July 1944, ending the Field Marshal's career once and for all.
This has just been in the news; see the story at:
http://www.canada.com/national/story.ht ... c1aeea1572
Canadian ended Rommel's career
Sixty years later, a decorated Spitfire pilot from 412 Squadron is finally being credited with the strafing attack on a German staff car in France that severely wounded Hitler's most accomplished general
RANDY BOSWELL
CanWest News Service
Tuesday, April 27, 2004
A Canadian pilot long recognized for his Second World War heroics - including three sorties on D-Day alone - is now being credited with knocking legendary German Field Marshal Erwin Rommel out of action in the crucial weeks following the invasion of Normandy.
The story of how Spitfire pilot Charley Fox strafed Rommel's staff car as it sped through the French countryside July 17, 1944, is finally becoming clear after almost 60 years of uncertainty over who wounded the man known as "the Desert Fox."
A U.S. air crew initially claimed the strike. Many accounts credit South African pilot J.J. Le Roux.
But a Quebec historian researching at the Library and Archives of Canada says the official operational record book of Fox's unit, 412 Squadron, puts the Ontario-born pilot in the air at the right time and place.
"Charley Fox is probably the guy that fired at Rommel's car," concludes Michel Lavigne, author of several books about the Second World War.
"This is the official account from the time, usually filled out by a clerk with the squadron, recording when planes took off and came back. It's very precise, very exact."
Lavigne's findings confirm Fox's own log entry from that day, and his recollections.
"We took off late in the afternoon," recalls Fox, 84, who lives in London, Ont., and is to be installed as honorary colonel of his old wartime unit, 412 Squadron, this week in Ottawa.
"As soon as we got airborne at Bernieres-sur-Mer, we started heading toward Caen and we split up into three sections of four, and we were to look for 'targets of opportunity' - anything that was moving. It was the other side of Caen, and I saw this staff car coming along between a line of trees on a main road," Fox said.
"I made no motion until it was just about 9 o'clock, and I did a diving, curving attack down and I probably started firing at about 300 yards. I saw hits on it and I saw it start to curve and go off the road - and by then I'm on my way."
Fox says the incident remains "very clear in my mind." And the July 17 entry in his wartime log book records "1 staff car damaged" along with a mechanical transport vehicle destroyed. At the end of the entry, Fox had written: "? Rommel - Yes."
The attack marked the end of Rommel's brilliant career. While still recovering from severe head injuries suffered in the car crash, he was falsely implicated in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler and forced to swallow poison pills in October 1944.
Fox, a recipient of the Distinguished Flying Cross and bar, says initially he wasn't interested in pushing a claim for the attack.
"The day that this happened, July 17, that evening the Americans claimed that they got him with a P-47," he recalls. "As far as I was concerned, end of story."
But German reports soon indicated the attack had been carried out by two Spitfires. Recently, artist Lance Russwurm approached Fox about helping him depict the incident.
Around the same time, Lavigne told Fox about his findings.
At Fox's investiture Friday as honorary colonel, Russwurm's painting of Rommel Under Attack will be presented to 412 Squadron.
© The Gazette (Montreal) 2004
He's the pilot who straffed Rommel's staff car on 17 July 1944, ending the Field Marshal's career once and for all.
This has just been in the news; see the story at:
http://www.canada.com/national/story.ht ... c1aeea1572
Canadian ended Rommel's career
Sixty years later, a decorated Spitfire pilot from 412 Squadron is finally being credited with the strafing attack on a German staff car in France that severely wounded Hitler's most accomplished general
RANDY BOSWELL
CanWest News Service
Tuesday, April 27, 2004
A Canadian pilot long recognized for his Second World War heroics - including three sorties on D-Day alone - is now being credited with knocking legendary German Field Marshal Erwin Rommel out of action in the crucial weeks following the invasion of Normandy.
The story of how Spitfire pilot Charley Fox strafed Rommel's staff car as it sped through the French countryside July 17, 1944, is finally becoming clear after almost 60 years of uncertainty over who wounded the man known as "the Desert Fox."
A U.S. air crew initially claimed the strike. Many accounts credit South African pilot J.J. Le Roux.
But a Quebec historian researching at the Library and Archives of Canada says the official operational record book of Fox's unit, 412 Squadron, puts the Ontario-born pilot in the air at the right time and place.
"Charley Fox is probably the guy that fired at Rommel's car," concludes Michel Lavigne, author of several books about the Second World War.
"This is the official account from the time, usually filled out by a clerk with the squadron, recording when planes took off and came back. It's very precise, very exact."
Lavigne's findings confirm Fox's own log entry from that day, and his recollections.
"We took off late in the afternoon," recalls Fox, 84, who lives in London, Ont., and is to be installed as honorary colonel of his old wartime unit, 412 Squadron, this week in Ottawa.
"As soon as we got airborne at Bernieres-sur-Mer, we started heading toward Caen and we split up into three sections of four, and we were to look for 'targets of opportunity' - anything that was moving. It was the other side of Caen, and I saw this staff car coming along between a line of trees on a main road," Fox said.
"I made no motion until it was just about 9 o'clock, and I did a diving, curving attack down and I probably started firing at about 300 yards. I saw hits on it and I saw it start to curve and go off the road - and by then I'm on my way."
Fox says the incident remains "very clear in my mind." And the July 17 entry in his wartime log book records "1 staff car damaged" along with a mechanical transport vehicle destroyed. At the end of the entry, Fox had written: "? Rommel - Yes."
The attack marked the end of Rommel's brilliant career. While still recovering from severe head injuries suffered in the car crash, he was falsely implicated in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler and forced to swallow poison pills in October 1944.
Fox, a recipient of the Distinguished Flying Cross and bar, says initially he wasn't interested in pushing a claim for the attack.
"The day that this happened, July 17, that evening the Americans claimed that they got him with a P-47," he recalls. "As far as I was concerned, end of story."
But German reports soon indicated the attack had been carried out by two Spitfires. Recently, artist Lance Russwurm approached Fox about helping him depict the incident.
Around the same time, Lavigne told Fox about his findings.
At Fox's investiture Friday as honorary colonel, Russwurm's painting of Rommel Under Attack will be presented to 412 Squadron.
© The Gazette (Montreal) 2004
For me.
The propaganda lies , " surcomed to wounds" , the State Funeral planned before he was dead , the wreath sent from a " grateful Fuhrer " , down to the Ek styled grave marker.
From Hitler death was the only choice
This more bursts the "Hitler Bubble" than it does anything else .
Rommel had to die , trial was never to have been an option.
Justice such as it had been reduced to had no place in the decision ,
"guilt" had already been assumed.
Again this leads back indirectly to the 20th July issue and the rights and wrongs of the leadership , its lack of responsibility to and for the nation
As far as reputation goes Rommel ( for all his faults ) stands head and shoulders above Hitler and his entourage.
This achieved without the asistance of Reich Propaganda.
From Hitler death was the only choice
This more bursts the "Hitler Bubble" than it does anything else .
Rommel had to die , trial was never to have been an option.
Justice such as it had been reduced to had no place in the decision ,
"guilt" had already been assumed.
Again this leads back indirectly to the 20th July issue and the rights and wrongs of the leadership , its lack of responsibility to and for the nation
As far as reputation goes Rommel ( for all his faults ) stands head and shoulders above Hitler and his entourage.
This achieved without the asistance of Reich Propaganda.
" Life , to be sure is nothing much to loose ; But young men think it is , and we were young . "
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
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Beppo Schmidt
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It is beyond my comprehension how decades after all of his crimes and betrayal of his people and ridiculous, psychotically paranoid anti-Semitism, there are still so many idiots who swallow every sweet pound of @#% Adolf Hitler stuffs down their throats. HITLER ORDERED GERMANY DESTROYED, IS THAT THE ACTIONS OF A NOBLE MAN WHO LOVES HIS COUNTRY?? Millions of Germans died for him, and that is the thanks the selfish arrogant bastard gives them?? Destroy their country?! You are an extremely sick and disturbed person to worship a mass murderer.
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101stDoc
- Associate
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- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 7:55 pm
- Location: Midwest, United States of America
This' actually not a new discussion.PaulJ wrote:A U.S. air crew initially claimed the strike. Many accounts credit South African pilot J.J. Le Roux.
I have not researched the Canadian's claim, but I have researched Le Roux's claim. I do not see any evidence in this new "review" that could debunk Le Roux's claim. Notes in a log do not a claim prove. Sorry. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it's just too hard to prove. Not to mention that Le Roux was sadly killed in the war (in an accident ironically), so we don't have him to acquire first hand info from. Le Roux has been extensively researched by quite a number of people. He's a quadruple ace with a well documented history.
The biggest issue is both were in Spitfires.
There was also one other pilot that was thought to possibly have shot up Rommel's staff car: G/C Joe Holmes, in a Typhoon from 266 Sqdn.
There's also the fact that Le Roux's attack was heavily witnessed.
This sounds like someone wanting to rewrite history, or challenge the claim. Or maybe both. Or maybe it's just a RCAF grudge.
We will probably never know, with 100% certainty who attacked Rommel that day.
Doc
Study More ?
No Heinz, I don't think you are being objective here.
Beppo does not need to study more , you only ask that he views things exactly as you do.
You will Heinz shape things to protect Hitler to the best of your ability at every turn and corner, this colours your view on history and events.
Although Rommel was not linked to the 20th July Plot he did challange Hitler on the future of Germany knowing that the war was lost and that in a few months many more would die and that there would be no other way to avoid this waste of life other than ending the war.
Hitler dismissed Rommel from the conference room and would not entertain what was being said, the very thought was treason to Hitler's ears.
This Heinz is again the "Hitler Bubble" , the idea that Hitler was a great leader , married to the Germany People's future , working for their good at every turn and corner , a man who was gifted , who would right all thewrongs and who if given a free hand would lead germany into a new golden age , " a New Order which would last for a thousand years".
This is the fragile bubble which you ignore Heinz.
Hitler was very much the beast of myth , he was loyal only to himself , he never had the interests of Germany at heart , only those of Adolf Hitler.
You slate Rommel for your own reasons but you cannot for reasons of your own judge Hitler for what he was nor can you seperate the dictator from the very obvious destruction into which he plunged the German People. (This "Rommel Bubble" is sympotamatic of this.)
Rommel was more aware of Hitler than you Heinz , he learnt it the hard way.
You with the benefit of hindsight no matter how much you study will always be blind to this.
When you say to Beppo " You need to study more" , its a stone thrown from a glass house.
Beppo does not need to study more , you only ask that he views things exactly as you do.
You will Heinz shape things to protect Hitler to the best of your ability at every turn and corner, this colours your view on history and events.
Although Rommel was not linked to the 20th July Plot he did challange Hitler on the future of Germany knowing that the war was lost and that in a few months many more would die and that there would be no other way to avoid this waste of life other than ending the war.
Hitler dismissed Rommel from the conference room and would not entertain what was being said, the very thought was treason to Hitler's ears.
This Heinz is again the "Hitler Bubble" , the idea that Hitler was a great leader , married to the Germany People's future , working for their good at every turn and corner , a man who was gifted , who would right all thewrongs and who if given a free hand would lead germany into a new golden age , " a New Order which would last for a thousand years".
This is the fragile bubble which you ignore Heinz.
Hitler was very much the beast of myth , he was loyal only to himself , he never had the interests of Germany at heart , only those of Adolf Hitler.
You slate Rommel for your own reasons but you cannot for reasons of your own judge Hitler for what he was nor can you seperate the dictator from the very obvious destruction into which he plunged the German People. (This "Rommel Bubble" is sympotamatic of this.)
Rommel was more aware of Hitler than you Heinz , he learnt it the hard way.
You with the benefit of hindsight no matter how much you study will always be blind to this.
When you say to Beppo " You need to study more" , its a stone thrown from a glass house.
" Life , to be sure is nothing much to loose ; But young men think it is , and we were young . "
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
A.E. Housman.
" The old lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori. " Wilfred Owen (M.C.).
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Beppo Schmidt
- Associate
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:25 pm
Do you think if I study enough I might just one day have my eyes opened to the truth the way you did, and learn that Adolf Hitler is actually the most misunderstood hero in the history of the world, and the Allies were completely led by homosexual Jewish Communists? It must be lonely for you, not being able to find anyone else who knows the "truth".You need to study more.
Bursting the Rommel bubble
Surely Monty thought enough of Rommel to have a large painting of him hanging in his caravan?
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Beppo Schmidt
- Associate
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 12:25 pm
Patton was supposed to know Infanterie Greift An by heart, that explains a lot.Beppo Schmidt wrote:Patton thought rather highly of Rommel as well, at least as an adversary. So did Winston Churchill.
best,
Nibelung
There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people. - Heinz Guderian
-- Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago. --
-- Sine doctrina vita est quasi mortis imago. --
"Das Bubi Marschall" was Rundstedt's nickname for Model, not Rommel. The Field Marshall's baton is given to a general that captures a major fortified position, not on account of popularity.Piet Duits wrote:"Heinz",
(or is it your real name?)
For once, I agree with you. I doubt it that Rommel would have been so popular if he saw action on the eastern front. But he didn't, so that's only speculating.
If he wasn't as popular with the crowd, he would also not been made a Feldmarschall. His collegues knew that too, and therefor he wasn't very polular with them (wasn't it Von Rundstedt who called Rommel the baby-marschall?)
Nevertheless, he must be remembered for the way he commanded his troops: from the front, and not a rear-area commander (maybe something he learned in WW2
I also love the story about the time he had some italian staff-officers bragging about their medals. When they became curious where and how Rommel earned his Pour le Merité, he answered by defeating an Italian force. The officers stopped bragging...
I like that
BTW this is a pontless thread.
Imad
Cry 'havoc' and let slip... the dogs of war
Bursting the Rommel bubble
I only hope Manfred Rommel does not read the hurtful comments on this page.
Definition of a committee:
A committee is a collection of the unfit chosen from amongst the unwilling by the incompetent to do the unnecessary.
A committee is a collection of the unfit chosen from amongst the unwilling by the incompetent to do the unnecessary.