Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

German campaigns and battles 1919-1945.

Moderator: sniper1shot

phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by phylo_roadking »

Ridiculously to name air-defence batteries as Luftwaffe- belonging when their personnel for 75-80 percent consisted from RAD-young men and RAD-girls, 15-16th years schoolboys and schoolgirls, workers and working women of factories, foreigners and other non-Wehrmacht public. It is especially ridiculous, because 20-25 % which were in these batteries Luftwaffe-soldier it were those soldiers who consisted in commands recovering after stay in hospital.
For example, in the USSR all who served in an antiaircraft artillery (not important in what place - in deep back or at the front) were taken at the staff Red Army.
If air-defence batteries were commanded down the Luftwaffe chain of command they were LW units. In the UK, Home Guard-armed AA units in the last three years of the war were listed as part of Anti-Aircraft Command, not the LDV.

Just because a given gun or battery is perhaps "manned" by schoolboys/schoolgirls doesn't mean its an asset of the German educational system....!

You even contradict your own contention -
For example, in the USSR all who served in an antiaircraft artillery (not important in what place - in deep back or at the front) were taken at the staff Red Army
So likewise - with the Luftwaffe being responsible for German AA defences - the origin of guncrews/personnel doesn't matter; when they're serving the Luftwaffe's guns under ultimate Luftwaffe command and responsibility they're "Luftwaffe personnel"
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
Jan-Hendrik
Patron
Posts: 1984
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 8:42 am
Location: Wienhausen
Contact:

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by Jan-Hendrik »

Absurd Yuristan is growing :D :D

Now he brings in structure of Heimatflak to "proove" structure of luftwaffen-flak in front areas...mybe he should first read and understand what he translates (??) to bring it into the discussion :shock: :D :roll:
As an example, it is possible to compare OoB Flak-Division 15, defined in a post-war German source, and OoB Flak-Division 15 (mot) defined on German documents of a wartime which are stored in TsAMO and which I have possibility to read.
So, we find in a modern German source about OoB Flak-Division 15 following:
Apart from the annoying "translations" of unit designations and the usual error of calling internet sites as "sources" do you have ever heart about the fact that german Flak-Divisions/- Brigaden were only organizational staffs for subordinated Falk units, no general structure as f.e. an Infanterie- or Panzerdivision.

So you point is next to zero....

And yes, this makes this discussion so boring. Once you tried to proove that soviet propagand version of the Tscherkassy operation ist the holy truth and all reports by german side are fakes. You failed, as usual. Now you try again the quibble about you most liked fairy tale, the "european Army" invading "poor soviet union of Father Stalin". Sorrowly not only those russian translations seems to lack in a general understanding of german army and its structure, but you understanding of the matter seems to be rather minmal, too :roll:



:[]

Jan-Hendrik
User avatar
Igorn
Associate
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by Igorn »

Jan-Hendrik wrote:
So you point is next to zero....
If our moderators are claiming that they are unbiased, now is the point to step in and warn Hendrik about accusations and personal attacks on Yuri who added a lot of value to this dicussion.

Jan-Hendrik wrote: And yes, this makes this discussion so boring. Once you tried to proove that soviet propagand version of the Tscherkassy operation ist the holy truth and all reports by german side are fakes. You failed, as usual. Now you try again the quibble about you most liked fairy tale, the "european Army" invading "poor soviet union of Father Stalin". Sorrowly not only those russian translations seems to lack in a general understanding of german army and its structure, but you understanding of the matter seems to be rather minmal, too :roll:
Yuri, just ignore him. You will understand his emotions and hatred to Russians when recall that his grandfather's unit was defeated at Oder by the Russians and his GF was captured by the Soviet army as POW (This was stated by Hendric himself on one of the forums).

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
Jan-Hendrik
Patron
Posts: 1984
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 8:42 am
Location: Wienhausen
Contact:

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by Jan-Hendrik »

.
You will understand his emotions and hatred to Russians when recall that his grandfather's unit was defeated at Oder by the Russians and his GF was captured by the Soviet army as POW (This was stated by Hendric himself on one of the forums).
Why should I? :D :D

Do really really think myself could be as primitive as those AgitProp cowboys are? Don't look to deep into your mirror, friend, you might get afraid :D
Yuri who added a lot of value to this dicussion.
Where? When?

If you guys still want to post penetrant proganda stuff you have to live with the fact that you will get a reation :wink:

We are not living in the Reich of Putin here in Europe...

Jan-Hendik
User avatar
Igorn
Associate
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by Igorn »

Jan-Hendrik wrote:Don't look to deep into your mirror, friend, you might get afraid :D
You know, I can tell you something. My grandfather, like yours, took part in combats at Oder but from other side. He was Guards Major and Commander of the Grds. Battalion in the 5th Guards Rifle Army. His battalion was amongst the first to force-cross Oder and he was awarded the Order of the Red Star for the force-crossing Oder. My another grandfather fought in the 11th Guards Tank Brigade of the 2nd Grds Tank Army. He started the war as the tank commander and finished the war as the battalion commander and was also awarded the Red Star Order. His Brigade went through Stalingrad, Kursk, Cherkassy and finished the war in Berlin. So, my grandfathers were the winners and yours were the losers. This is to the question who should be afraid of what. :wink:

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
Jan-Hendrik
Patron
Posts: 1984
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 8:42 am
Location: Wienhausen
Contact:

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by Jan-Hendrik »

Well, that explains at least you tendency to glorify Stalinism and Red Army....thank god I am not looking on history on such a childish flat perspective :wink:

But I fear, that Yuri's is even flatter...

:[]

Jan-Hendrik
User avatar
Igorn
Associate
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by Igorn »

Jan-Hendrik wrote:Well, that explains at least you tendency to glorify Stalinism and Red Army....
The story of your GF explains your tendency to glorify Hitlerism and Wehrmacht... Enclosed is some information about participation of 11 Guards Tank Brigade of my grandfather in the Korsun-Shevchenkovsky (Cherkassy) operation.

From the report of the Commanding General of the 2nd Tank Army General Bogdanov about combat operations of the 2nd Tank Army from 25.1.44 to 25.2.44

"Encircled enemy grouping, shielding by tanks, at 5.00 on 17.02.44 broke through in the area of Khilki, Komarovka and by disorganized crowd of 10,000 men rushed in to Petrovskoye. Due to strong resistance of our units the enemy was pushed back to Khilki. After that at 6.30 disorganized crowd rushed in to Komarovka but there too the enemy was pushed back and retreated to Khilki. At 7.30 on 17.02.44 the enemy facing strong resistance and shielding by tanks and civil population started retreat to south and south-west between Petrovskoye and Komarovka.

At 9.00 on 17.02.44 tanks of the 11th Guards Tank Brigade broke into 10,000 men crowd of the enemy and shooting Germans from tank guns and machine guns on the spot were exterminating the enemy by tank tracks and fire. From 9.00 a.m. to 12.00 a.m. tanks of 11th Guards Tank Brigade were driving through the enemy crowd, shooting and firing inflicting heavy casualties on the enemy. By 14.00 the whole battlefield in the area of Komarovka, Khilki, Petrovskoye was littered with corpses of enemy, broken carts and machines. Some groups of enemy soldiers ran away."

:[]

Source: Central Archive of the Russian Defense Ministry f. 307, d.221, op. 4148, l. 22-23
Igor
Jan-Hendrik
Patron
Posts: 1984
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 8:42 am
Location: Wienhausen
Contact:

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by Jan-Hendrik »

The story of your GF explains your tendency to glorify Hitlerism and Wehrmacht.
Silly response...as I never did so :D :D

Myself is adult enough to approach history without personal emotions or prefixes of nationalism...maye yourself and your friend Yuri might reflect this point once :!:

:[]

Jan-Hendrik
User avatar
Igorn
Associate
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by Igorn »

Jan-Hendrik wrote:
The story of your GF explains your tendency to glorify Hitlerism and Wehrmacht.
Silly response...as I never did so :D :D Myself is adult enough to approach history without personal emotions or prefixes of nationalism...maye yourself and your friend Yuri might reflect this point once :!:

:[] Jan-Hendrik
Of course, we Russians for you are silly and stupid untermenschen while you Hendrik belong to the Arien race who are deprived of emotions and prefixes of nationalism. Only in 1000+ of your ''unbiased'' posts nobody will find a single one with the cold-blooded criticism of Wehrmacht and W-SS and appreciation of the military art of the Russian Army. 8)

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
Jan-Hendrik
Patron
Posts: 1984
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 8:42 am
Location: Wienhausen
Contact:

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by Jan-Hendrik »

Agin a silly post...you may continue to make an idiot out of yourself :roll: You don't need to project your own silly ressentiments against "westerners" on other members of Feldgrau. Indeed we have only two examplares of this dying out species here, yourself and Yuri. :D :D
Only in 1000+ of your ''unbiased'' posts nobody will find a single one with the cold-blooded criticism of Wehrmacht and W-SS and appreciation of the military art of the Russian Army.
Your inability to read properly just defect your own position :down:
Of course, we Russians for you are silly and stupid untermenschen
Why you are insulting the people of Russia with comparing their mental abilities with such hate-cored subjects like yourself :roll:
:[]

Jan-Hendrik
User avatar
Igorn
Associate
Posts: 818
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 12:09 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia
Contact:

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by Igorn »

Jan-Hendrik wrote:Agin a silly post...you may continue to make an idiot out of yourself :roll: You don't need to project your own silly ressentiments against "westerners" on other members of Feldgrau. Indeed we have only two examplares of this dying out species here, yourself and Yuri. :D :D
Only in 1000+ of your ''unbiased'' posts nobody will find a single one with the cold-blooded criticism of Wehrmacht and W-SS and appreciation of the military art of the Russian Army.
Your inability to read properly just defect your own position :down:
Of course, we Russians for you are silly and stupid untermenschen
Why you are insulting the people of Russia with comparing their mental abilities with such hate-cored subjects like yourself :roll:
:[]

Jan-Hendrik
Again a highly intelligent and smart post of cold-blooded Hendric. As to "dying species" look at the mirror and stop insulting people on this forum.
Be careful with such accusations and don't forget about KGB who keep watching guys like you. As far as my mental abilities are concerned I am having MBA degree from the top Western Business School and a distinction degree from the leading Russian military institution. 8)

Best Regards from Russia,
Igor
Yuri
Supporter
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:55 am

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by Yuri »

Earlier, in one of the previous posts I already mentioned, that two motorised air-defence divisions of Germans participated in Korsun-Shevchenkovsky battle: Flak Div. 17. (mot.) on III. Pz. Korp. and Flak Div. 10. (mot.) on a site XLVII Pz. Korp. (gen v. Vormann).
Before Flak Div. 10. (mot.) was in gen. Schörner’s Korp-Abteilung also it was thrown to Korsun-Shevchenkovsky together with Pz. Div. 24.
However, Pz. Div. 24. unlike Flak Div. 10. (mot.) participation in Korsun-Shevchenkovsky battle did not accept, as at once on arrival in the Vormann’s Korp. it has been returned back to Nikopol as Russian have made there a breakthrough of the defences of bridgehead .
In structure Flak Div. 10. (mot.) was Flak Regt.12 (mot.) to which light 735th Railway Air-Defence Abteilung- /leichte Flak Abt. 735 (Eisb.)/ submitted in the office relation.. Thus concerning use this railway Air-Defence Abteilung submitted to the German commander of transport traffics of the South of Russia.
More low I give transfer of the battle report of one of commanders of batteries leichte Flak Abt. 735 (Eisb.).
The report is interesting in several directions.
First, comparison of the data received from the report of commanders of batteries, and that that informs us the German post-war source about same of leichte Flak-Abteilung 735 (v), leichte Flak-Abteilung 735 (Eisb.) once again shows low reliability of the last.

Secondly, this report shows basic differences between the Railway Air-Defence Abteilungs, operating in an army group "South" (as others army groups in Russia - "A", "Center" and "North".), and heavy Air-Defence Abteilungs on the railway platforms, operating on the expanded territory of Reich.
These are differences both in a chain of command, and in type of solved problems.

The truth here is one but. As assures us, ours dear Jan-Hendrik, all German commanders of air-defence units and formations are in combination agents of the Soviet propagation. Thereupon I wish to tell, that I about it do not know, the such information I do not arrange and consequently I leave them on exclusive on conscience of ours dear Jan-Hendrik.
As to quality of my transfers that here, ours dear Jan-Hendrik, is absolutely right. In my opinion, it is necessary to award at least the Iron Cross II of everyone whom to suffice patience to read till the end of my literary trash. But unfortunately, anything in here (поменьшей to a measure at present) help I can nothing. In such case Russian speak - you a welcome to all we have!

So, follows more low, the report of lieutenant Ernst (it is possible Erist) - the commander 2nd battery of leichte Flak Abt. 735th (Eisb.). This report is made together with corporal /unter-offizier/ Meier (is commander of 1st platoon) and contains some typewritten pages. Therefore I give from it only that is of interest for us.

About it Abteilung I will give some additional data in a following post.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lieutenant Ernst ............................................on October, 19th, 1943
2nd battery of light 735th Air-Defence Abteilung

To: 17th (mot.) Air-Defence Division.


The report on approach of an infantry and tanks of the opponent
on railway station Pyatkihatka - on October, 18th, 1943.


2nd battery carried out air-defence defence of railway station Pyatkihatka. The battery deployed as follows:
1st platoon as a part of four guns with one the searchlight on railway platforms was in deadlock on an East side of station at a road exit on Verhovtsevo.
2nd platoon as a part of three guns and a transport railway platforms were in deadlock on the southwest side of station in a direction to Krivoi Rog.
4th platoon was on positions for land defence to the north of station, the platoon should replace positions and pass to air-defence towers nearby from a battery transport:
Two searchlights stood at deadlock behind empty echelons.
In a direction on Znamenka 3rd platoon.
......
In 15.00 October, 18 1st platoon has told by phone, that tanks and an infantry of the opponent attack distance of 3,500 m. I slowly has sent this report to an aide-de-camp of 12th air-defence Regiment /Flak Regt.12 (mot) - Yuri/ and has obtained the order to get the locomotive and to transport the battery in Aleksandriha. Therefore I have immediately commanded to platoons to be prepared for movement, to move together all cars and to expect the locomotive.
I have commanded to 4th platoon to remove three guns from gun carriages and to ship in empty cars of the battery. Then I have called in management of transportable park and have tried to receive the mobile locomotive to connect all platforms and battery cars in one structure. However to me have answered, that free locomotives are not present, and in the next two-three hours will not be. Therefore I have sent ober-wachmeistr Herndkind to the chief of station with the task - by all means immediately to get the locomotive for battery formation in one structure.
In the meantime 1st platoon has reported, that shells are torn already nearby from a platoon, apparently, it the tanks of the opponent pushed forward delivered fire.
......

I could not leave without the consent of the battle commandant Pyatikhatka - therefore I have tried to contact it by phone and to report on battery departure, that and it was possible to me after long efforts. Then I together with wachmeist Velvig have gone to two searchlights which were at deadlock behind empties, whether to find out they are deduced from this deadlock.
Firing was distributed absolutely close from station. On searchlight plants machine-gun fire from the north was already conducted. In the meantime has darkened. I was convinced that both searchlight plants it is impossible to take out at once as ahead of them at deadlock there is a considerable quantity of empty cars. Then in darkness I have gone on station and have found for cars of 1st platoon. The platoon commander corporal Meier has reported on me, that the locomotive together with corporal Wielde has left behind other platoons.
Now tanks of the opponent have appeared on a North side of station and have opened fire on ways, structures and locomotives. Apparently, the infantry of the opponent has got on station as from a station building machine-gun fire was conducted. We could not shoot, as were in the middle of other structures. All German railwaymen in panic ran. From time to time there passed the German soldiers who have lost the subdivisions, they informed, that ahead of German troops already there are no also Soviet tanks encircle Pyatikhatka.

I have got through some cars and have gone on locomotive searches under steams which could generate battery structure, however on all recarts there were only Russian brigades. All German railwaymen ran from station. To entrust formation of structure to Russian brigade it was impossible. We did not know neither ways, nor an arrangement of arrows as it was absolutely dark.
....

Both departures on Verhovtsevo and Znamenka had tanks of the opponent. To me have informed, that the first locomotive forming for us structure, has received a direct hit of a shell of a tank gun and has failed. It has convinced me, that the battery cannot be deduced from station. I could not find in darkness of the commander of 1st platoon and have given to the commander of 3rd gun of a platoon the order to undermine guns. Whether this order is executed, I could not establish till now yet as did not meet those soldiers of this platoon it was entrusted to them to undermine guns. I have commanded to a platoon to collect at a transport arrangement.

I also have run to 2nd platoon and a transport to give the order to undermine guns as I saw, that the opponent delivers fire on a platoon arrangement.
.....

Having come to 2 platoon, I have found ober-wachmeistr Hernkind with the platoon commander and several soldiers in shelter. Platoon cars were already fired by the tanks of the opponent which are nearby. The Platoon commander has sent the majority of people in a direction on the south as since October, 3rd at them was not neither small arms and nor an ammunition.
....

After that we under strong fire of tank guns and machine guns have set fire to some cars, including the car-office. Classified documents still before took with itself ober-wachmeist Herndkind.
....

I with small group of people left from station in a direction on the south. The village through which we passed, also was under fire of the opponent. Tanks of the opponent already encircled Pyatikhatka - from the south.

Having made a night march, having passed about 20 km, we have been picked up by a column of cargo motor vehicles of an antiaircraft artillery of land forces and are delivered to Krivoi Rog. Immediately after the arrival to Krivoi Rog I was in a headquarters of 17th (motorised) air-defence division.
I do not know losses in personnel as to define these losses at first it is necessary to collect all remained soldiers of the battery. Losses in an equipment:

12 guns of calibre of 2.0 sm, the sample «30»;
4 searchlights of 60 sm;
4 /electro-/ units;
12 special trailers «51»;
1 cargo motor vehicle;
1 automobile motor vehicle;
2 motorcycles.

the lieutenant /signature – Yuri/
---------------------------------------------
Yuri
Supporter
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:55 am

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by Yuri »

I ask to excuse, guys, for a small typing error in the text.
The correct name of settlement in the battle report of the commander of 2nd battery of light 735th Air-Defence Abteilung (railway) is Pyatikhatka, instead of Pyatkihatka
phylo_roadking
Patron
Posts: 8459
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: Battle of Korsun-Shevchenko(Hitler agreed with of gen. lie)

Post by phylo_roadking »

This thread is being locked now.

For the information of the major contributor to this thread.

An addition to the Forum Rules has been written and is with Jason for approval regarding the sourcing of material in posts...as a result of this thread.

Through this thread there has been a HUGE amount of material present supposedly "from Russian archives" - without a single document number/archive number/page reference to allow a.n.other to view/inspect the same material IF they should happen to wan to or to be able to.

A thread of this nature will not be occuring again after the acceptance of this rule into the Forum Rules.

In the meantime - a number of other maters arising will be being discussed by Moderators.
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
Locked