Let the veterans talk?

michael kenny · Post by **michael kenny** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:36 pm

I warned you earlier in the thread....................

michael kenny wrote:
Perhaps now we can have 345 pages proving the source of all the Worlds ills is the result of us not joining this great crusade to rid the world of the Red subhumans............

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:03 am

Not a case of warning - more a case of when you manage to (or choose to) totally ignore certain minor historical happenings like Casablanca, that settled the post-war political shape of Europe ahead of schedule and with Roosevelt's and Churchill's agreement, and instead choose to write a statement like

Did Stalin have the agreement of any European nation when he took land belonging to other nations?
Did any state collude in this take over?

...don't expect not to have to dodge the incoming half-bricks of mere fact....

michael kenny · Post by **michael kenny** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:35 am

In 1939 Hitler was Stalins partner and carved up Eastern Europe with him. I find it strange that the appologists then claim that Stalins expansion westward as Hitlers reason for the 'pre-emptive strike'. Old ground , old battles and nothing more than an attempt to re-write history to try and redeem something from the evil that was the Third Reich.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:53 am

Hi Paddy,

The key word in your post was "might".

A million and one things "might" have happened. However, history deals with what did.

Yup, Hitler "might" have cleansed Russia of Bolshevism - and of Russians too! Not a very good trade off for Russians!

Cheers,

Sid.

Paddy Keating · Post by **Paddy Keating** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:46 pm

Sure, it's purely hypothesis. But just about everything prophesied by the losers of that war has come to pass, with knobs and bells on. However, I am not going to waste valuable energy arguing about it here. I think the energy is better invested in less obvious but more effective initiatives.

PK

Paddy Keating · Post by **Paddy Keating** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:47 pm

michael kenny wrote:In 1939 Hitler was Stalins partner and carved up Eastern Europe with him. I find it strange that the appologists then claim that Stalins expansion westward as Hitlers reason for the 'pre-emptive strike'. Old ground , old battles and nothing more than an attempt to re-write history to try and redeem something from the evil that was the Third Reich.

Who's apologising?

PK

HeinrichFrey · Post by **HeinrichFrey** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:33 am

Yes, it was me who started this thread not being aware what emotions would come through. I only wanted to mention that the veterans aren`t able to talk about their experiences as former german soldier till now. Mostly. Today it`s called posttraumatic syndrom. That was all. I already gave the answer with my question. Since Clausewitz war is the last/latest? reason. I thought Hitler cited very often Clausewitz, why didn`t he read him?
Regards to all scholars and historians
Matthias

gerhard2 · Post by **gerhard2** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:49 am

Matthias,
Maybe if you had been raised in Germany and spent part of your youth fighting for your country follwed by years of inhumane treatment in a prisoner of war camp. You would then understand how I feel about your country, a country which sent me out to war during which I was wounded twice, left me to rot in a POW camp and classed me a Nazi. Someone who was not old enough to vote for his government or was ever given a choice.
When you say:
"They fought for their country (Führer, Volk und Vaterland) as well as their fathers fought for their country (Kaiser, Volk und Vaterland). They didn`t fight for my country, with all respect."
I guess all my comrades, the ones which did not come back, did not die for your country either.
You say my country - I believe you mean Germany, the country I was born. A son of Jehovah's Witnesses who was a very indifferent member of the compulsory Hitler Jugend who's only interest was Chemistry. Some Nazi !
That Germany you are welcome to, myself I am so glad to leave that place in my miserable past.
Gerhard

Paddy Keating · Post by **Paddy Keating** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:00 pm

Gerhard,

Some of us do not forget what you and your comrades went through in that war. As far as Mr Frey's remarks are concerned, were I German, I'd rather fight for Kaiser or Führer than Wall Street and the right of Americans to drive 4x4s at eight miles to the gallon, like today's German soldiers and all the other soldiers sweating in Afghanistan and Iraq.

PK

phylo_roadking · Post by **phylo_roadking** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:04 pm

(on that note, and just as an aside - do Blackwater, Haliburton, Fluora et al recuit ex-German Army personnel for "contracted service" there, or just US and British ex-servicemen???)

Knox · Post by **Knox** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:20 am

gerhard2, after all these years, still angry about your former homeland...

I feel very sorry for you, very honest, Veteran, and I hope, your new homeland is the best place on planet earth, for you.

"Heimweh", is it for you, sometimes...?

Knox, Germany

Knox · Post by **Knox** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:23 pm

I was born 1956, and I remember so very much veterans, coming back home, from the russian gulags, I was was kid back then, these peaked men in wheelchairs, walking on crooks, or without legs at all, they were "small", but they were treated like heroes.

The father of my friend Hans-Juergen lost both legs 1944, as a tanker, in the Ardennenschlacht, did the man ever moan about this, NO!, Johannes fathered 4 children, 3 boys, and one girl, all of them blond, blue-eyed, 100% aryan.

Their fathers history, they do not know this, neither his Deutsches Kreuz in Gold, the Nahkampfspange in Gold, etc.

They dont know NOTHING, tja...

Knox

gerhard2 · Post by **gerhard2** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:25 pm

Knox,
I would not call it angry when I remember the way so many in the POW camp made a about turn and became Anti-Nazi's over night. As well how your compatriots and officials I had to deal with. No not angry, just disgusted.
Certainly no need to feel sorry for me you are right "your new homeland is the best place on planet earth, for you". Here I finished my education and have 50 odd successful years behind me, away from all the typical officious Beamten.
"Heimweh" ? I don't think so, why I even forgotten the language of my birth. Not from anger, no because of indifference.
Gerhard
Incidentally when I read comments like this:
"Sorry Sir! They fought for their country (Führer, Volk und Vaterland) as well as their fathers fought for their country (Kaiser, Volk und Vaterland). They didn`t fight for my country, with all respect."
and yours (I think it was your post) where you describe us as Arbeitslose, no education, etc., .it kind off reenforces my opinion of your so very politically correct people.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:13 am

Hi Paddy,

Nope. What the losers predicted was their own victory. This, fortunately, did not come to pass.

Nor did their dire predictions about Communism come to pass. That was faced down successfully by the Liberal Democracies during the Cold War.

One wonders what the purpose of your intervention if you are "not going to waste valuable energy about it here". Whatever ever happened to the Paddy who used to claim he feared no debate with anyone, anywhere?

Cheers,

Sid.

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:40 am

Hi Paddy,

If I am not mistaken:

1) Not only Americans require oil for their vehicles. Germans and others do as well. Take the Americans out of the equation and continental Europe is vulnerable to blackmail by oil and gas producers. Look at its growing dependence on the whims of an increasingly totalitarian-drifting Russia!

2) The US had access to Iraqi oil even before the invasion of Iraq.

3) Afghanistan is not blessed with oil anyway!

Offering a political opinion only has value if it is accords with the facts.

Cheers,

Sid.