German training vs the training of US/UK

[2nd SS Panzer Das Reich]

Which training was better? Both sides did some awesome things, First lets see what the Germans did. Their Fallschirmjager took the fortress of Eben Emael. Their branderburges (was the Branderburges part of the Waffen SS, Luftwaffe or Heer?) went in and captured key bridges. The Fallschirmjager did yet another fine peace of work on Crete were they held until reforced. they lost 3,000 men but captured Crete and 1000s of British POWs. the Waffen SS need no introduction, they did fine work in all battles they went into. their was a case of only 3 Waffen SS divisions holding off to full Soviet armies outside of Warsaw before having to retreat. We all know the stories of Otto Skorzeny (some of which may not be completely true). The Waffen SS would again show their skill at Market Garden againist the allied pratroopers (these guys were no joke ethier). Waffen SS was feared by all who were unlucky enough to face them. The men of the Afrika Korps proved very good fighters under Erwin Rommel. They advanced deep into enemy held areas before being driven back by larger numbers and poor supplies.

Now lets look at UK/USA, Those great fighters of the Devils Brigade worked wonders in the Italian theater they captured key bridges and combated Germans againist all odds in daring Mountian warfare. Never failing a mission.
the SAS were another awesome force they held bridges at D-day until relieved. They planeted bombs on the Tirpitz and blew her sky high. The 101st and 82nd pratroopers showed their skill at D-day when they held key areas againist counter attack. The 101st again held the line at Bastogne againist 6 German divisions 2 of which were Panzer.
The Rangers one the D-day beaches proved how effective they were when they secured the beach head.

Who truely had better training the Wehrmacht or the British and/or American armies?

[Liam]

Most of the units you're referring to are 'special forces' whose training can't really be compared to the average infantry soldier. The Fallschirmjager-pionere who took Eban Emael were probably the most-highly trained troops anywhere in the world in 1940, Brandenburgers were specialised 'undercover' units closely associated with German intelligence operations. The Waffen SS. Hmmm. Lots of attitude and corps d'espirit. Was their training radically different from your average Landser? Not as far as I can tell. They were not very impressive in battle in 1939 or 1940. And the SAS and the Tirpitz? I think you're getting confused with the 'Cockleshell Heroes' (who were Marines/SBS, not SAS) and the Naval personnel who carried out the X-craft attacks on the Tirpitz. The Tirpitz was actually finished off by the RAF's 617 squadron "The Dam Busters".

[2nd SS Panzer Das Reich]

They are many tactics and ideas that the training put into their students heads. American tactics seem to be the MG supports the infantry were as the Germans infantry support the MG.

I need to get some videos were I can study the training and tactics of both sides and see for myself which training was better. Have you any idea were I could find books/videos on training of these 3 armed forces?

[Taifun]

Try the U.S. Army Handbook on German Military Forces...recently published in softcover....good background info. on the German training system.

[Jock]

Hi,

2SSPDR, how are you basing your argument on who's training is better? You cant just list actions, half of which are nonsense. The Airborne kept a foothold because Hitler liked to sleep late. The RN raided the Tirpitz with X Craft, and partially disabled her. (Liam, the men who took part in that mission were all RN/RNR who volunteered)

[2nd SS Panzer Das Reich]

Try the U.S. Army Handbook on German Military Forces...recently published in softcover....good background info. on the German training system.

My thanks to you sir.

[2nd SS Panzer Das Reich]

Hi,

2SSPDR, how are you basing your argument on who's training is better? You cant just list actions, half of which are nonsense. The Airborne kept a foothold because Hitler liked to sleep late. The RN raided the Tirpitz with X Craft, and partially disabled her. (Liam, the men who took part in that mission were all RN/RNR who volunteered)

Their actions are all I have to go on (I am looking for books and videos on the training). Both sides did some awsome stuff. And thank you for correcting me :). They were talking about British spec ops on TV and they talked about the Tirpitz, I thought it was SAS, but I guess I was wrong.

[Jock]

Hi 2SSPDR,

Dont worry about it...I should probably apologise for my abrupt manner. Dont always take everything you see and read as fact...the fun is in finding out whether it is true or not

In answer to your original question, German training was probably more disicplined, but the quality steadily fell in the later war years...So overall, the Allies probably put out a better quality of soldier for the entire duration of the war.

Cheers,

[2nd SS Panzer Das Reich]

I believe German training was better during the the months and years before sometime in 1944, the Problem was the the best trained battle hardened German soldiers had died out or were on the eastern front.

With time running out for Germany they no longer had time to fully train their soldiers for combat. I wonder what kind of training the Red Army had.

[Will]

Testify Jock! damn right half the fun is finding out wether its true or not!

however we part company when it comes to thinking that the allies were better, okay its true they had alot more training, but the germans were by and large battle hardened and that I think can make all the difference.

I concur also with 2SSpdr when he states that the majority of battle hardened troops were already pushing up daisys or engaged on the ostfront.

Where the allies differ I think is probabley in thier enthusiasm, they were well fed fresh and well equipped, and when u pit that against battle weary half starved and bloody terrified troops it can make all the difference.

The level of traing in germany declined steadily as the war ground on Germany simply did'nt have the time to train to train her replacements as well as she once did. also the qaulity of conscripts had seriousley declined once the western front had opened.

Wehrmacht soldiers were by no means anywhere near as well equipped as thier allied conterparts, sustained bombing raids and 'cherry picking' by the so called 'elite' divisions of the armed SS made sure that the average grunt was more than happy to reach for the sky and surrender when given the oppurtunity.

at the start of the war though Germany I feel boasted the better trained, equipped and enthusiastic soldier than the rest of Europe!

[Imad]

A very generalized topic. Hard to answer one way or the other. However, one must keep in mind what period of WW2 we are referring to. Towards the end of the war the overall quality of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS declined considerably, and this was also true of the famed panzerwaffe. All this for obvious reasons, the high attrition rate resulting in death or disablement of experienced soldiers, the chronic lack of fuel which resulted in less time spent in training panzermen, the near impotence of the Luftwaffe with it's inevitable result on the morale of the ground troops, etc.
The Germans were, however, imbued with the doctrine of Auftragstaktik, where junior officers were given missions and expected to use their own initiative and ingenuity to accomplish those missions. The results were miraculous. During the Ardennes battle, a motley group of cooks, clerks, administrative personne, and a single Tiger formed a Kampfgruppe as if by magic and broke out of American lines. No army had been able to show such results CONSISTENTLY.
Most unbiased historians are agreed on the superiority of the Germans, man for man, unit for unit, over their adversaries.

[Dexx]

You are right the Auftragstaktik that is still taught today made the difference. If you have the right soldiers for it (intelligent people) the Auftragstaktik is superior to everything else.

[Imad]

You are right the Auftragstaktik that is still taught today made the difference. If you have the right soldiers for it (intelligent people) the Auftragstaktik is superior to everything else.

Is it really taught today?
*amazed*
My knowledge of post WW2 Europe is poor so don't laugh at me. What armies is it taught in?
Imad

[Reb]

2nd SS

See "the GI Offensive in Europe" by Peter Mansoor for a very balanced look at the US forces vs the German. He claims to be rebutting Hastings, Keegan and others who have remarked on German tactical superiority but he actually does a fair job of pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of the US forces and the reaons for both. (particularly our lack of divisions and our appalling replacement system)

The author believes that a fair comparison would be the US forces of '45 and and the German forces of '40.

Hubert Meyer's history of the 12th SS has interesting insights into the training of that div but that was a special case.

One important factor for the Germans was the Ersatz Battalion which processed replacements into the line units as opposed to the American and British practice of sending them straight into the mincing machine. The difference there was based in part upon what Mansoor identifies as a lack of American (and I'd add, British) divisions - the German divs were smaller by the late war but there were still lots of them and they could on occassion be relieved for refitting - ours had to stay in the line pretty much for ever.

The key as always is take into consideration that nothing was consistant across the board (compare 2nd Pz to a luftwaffe field div!) nor was anything consistant across time. (see 1st US Inf Div on 6 June as opposed to the battered remnent of that same div after the Huertgen)

I think Hastings got it right when he said the best of the Brits and Yanks were quite as good as the best of the Germans. But it wasn't the best who won the war - it was the mass.

And by 1944 it didn't matter how good the German training was or wasn't - their inf were still horsedrawn and they were fighting a mobile war. Worse - the training army was pretty much used up to squeeze out forces for the for the Ardennes.

cheers

[Soldat1942]

Since this thread is about training, does anyone have information on the Brandenburg commando's training?