Hello Gentlemen,
I agree that the following question is, chronogically, just a bit out the limits of this forum but I need you help anyway.
I'm very interested about the military build-up of the Hebraic forces in Palestine before and after the Second World War.
Hagana (the clandestine army of the Jew fraction of Palestine founded in 1920), with his military full time soldiers elite Palmach, raised in 1941, and the right military organizations Irgun (1937) and Stern gang (1940) had all weapons (about 5-7.000 rifles acconding the various sources, during the Second World War). What I'm looking for is the kind of weapons they had. Looking at pics and for logistical reasons the typical rifle seemed the Enfield 7,7 (0303). This was, anyway, a British weapon. How did they get these weapons? They had machine guns too. What kind?
In 1947 and 1948 Stalin, believing to be able to include the future israelian state in his "socialist" sphere, sent from CZ Mauser rifles and MG 42 at will, with the correlate 7,92 bullets but what I'm interested is the 7,7, source or sources. It's possible that, in the years, some British soldier may have sold some rifles from depots or cartridges but thousands?!
I have got a second question about this argoument. The US government had declared, in 1947, that American weapons could not be sold in Palestine. American weapons and materials (B 17 included) arrived anyway at Haifa, during the following First Arab-Israelian war of 1948-1949. How was this possible? This is one of the stranges historical mistery I ever encountered. Any help is welcome. Thank you. EC
Jew build-up in Palestine before and during W.W. II
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Strange as it may seem the jewish settlements were under fairly frequent attack by Arab terrorists. Some Britsh officers, notably Orde Wingate (founder of the Chindits) mad something of a name for themselves in helping the Jews with their self-defence efforts. Needless to say this was official activity. Since the Jewish settlements were under attack the British administration was obliged to give them the means to protect themselves. Sorry if you were hoping for some tale of corrupt British soldiers.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Enrico,
I think the answer lies in the profusion of US and other equipment around the world after WWII which could be bought for ready money.
I was reading only yesterday of how, at American request, the British destroyed several dozen unserviceable US-supplied bombers when they left India. However, the Indians managed to cannibalise enough spares from the wrecks to put several squadrons into the air. The article concerned is in this or last month's "Flypast".
The Israelis also got hold of Spitfires and Messerschmitt 109s via Czechoslovakia. There are some articles in old issues of "Air Enthusiast" that cover this.
Cheers,
Sid.
I think the answer lies in the profusion of US and other equipment around the world after WWII which could be bought for ready money.
I was reading only yesterday of how, at American request, the British destroyed several dozen unserviceable US-supplied bombers when they left India. However, the Indians managed to cannibalise enough spares from the wrecks to put several squadrons into the air. The article concerned is in this or last month's "Flypast".
The Israelis also got hold of Spitfires and Messerschmitt 109s via Czechoslovakia. There are some articles in old issues of "Air Enthusiast" that cover this.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Well,
about Nigelfe:
a) Jew bribery of British soldiers (not Imperial ones) to buy small weapons from them is mentioned by Tom Segev, The Seventh Million, Domino Press, 1991 and by Benjamin Morris, Righteous Victims, 1999.
More details are available in an interview by Gershon Ravin, editor of Am Oved and former responsable of the Rekhesh (the search) clandestine organization in Storia Illustrata, July 1975, pages 65-67.
b) Wingate was sacked in May 1939 by the new White Book British policy whose delcared aim was to create, within 1949, a single Arab state in Palestine letting the Arab population the duty to protect the Jewish minority in change of the lend to the british of some last strongpoints, first among all the Haifa harbour.
What I'm looking for are not the wapons allowed, under strict British control, to the Jew police forces but the clandestine ones.
In particoular the moe than 5.000 rifles mentioned by all the sources before and during the war. They had to be 7,7 mm (O.303) rifles as these were the only available cartridges (it was logistic); the only rifles able to fire this kind of cartridges were British Enfields or US made Enfields. As bribery was not enought to buy, in a clandestine way, some thousands of rifles the question is: frow where the hell did arrive these weapons?
In 1940 the Germans offered Ireland many items of the huge amount of British weapons found along the Arras-Dunkerque road but the a.m. cladestine Jewish arsenal of the two rivarly organizations Haganah and Irgun was created during the Thirties. How. This is the problem and, judjing by the general silence around this matter it may be an interesting one.
The CZ weapons (7,92) are an other matter, their origin is well known. About the US ones (7,62 mm) they arrived after the Decond World War and so the original question about them is still: as the US government had forbidden, in 1947, any sell of American weapons was maybe possible to buy, on the US internal market, war weapons? I admit to be a little puzzled.
Bye EC
PS for Niglefe only: my purpose was not to collect corruption stories about British soldiers. It was enough to see them at work in Lebanon in 1983-1984 to have got a low opinion about this subject. EC
about Nigelfe:
a) Jew bribery of British soldiers (not Imperial ones) to buy small weapons from them is mentioned by Tom Segev, The Seventh Million, Domino Press, 1991 and by Benjamin Morris, Righteous Victims, 1999.
More details are available in an interview by Gershon Ravin, editor of Am Oved and former responsable of the Rekhesh (the search) clandestine organization in Storia Illustrata, July 1975, pages 65-67.
b) Wingate was sacked in May 1939 by the new White Book British policy whose delcared aim was to create, within 1949, a single Arab state in Palestine letting the Arab population the duty to protect the Jewish minority in change of the lend to the british of some last strongpoints, first among all the Haifa harbour.
What I'm looking for are not the wapons allowed, under strict British control, to the Jew police forces but the clandestine ones.
In particoular the moe than 5.000 rifles mentioned by all the sources before and during the war. They had to be 7,7 mm (O.303) rifles as these were the only available cartridges (it was logistic); the only rifles able to fire this kind of cartridges were British Enfields or US made Enfields. As bribery was not enought to buy, in a clandestine way, some thousands of rifles the question is: frow where the hell did arrive these weapons?
In 1940 the Germans offered Ireland many items of the huge amount of British weapons found along the Arras-Dunkerque road but the a.m. cladestine Jewish arsenal of the two rivarly organizations Haganah and Irgun was created during the Thirties. How. This is the problem and, judjing by the general silence around this matter it may be an interesting one.
The CZ weapons (7,92) are an other matter, their origin is well known. About the US ones (7,62 mm) they arrived after the Decond World War and so the original question about them is still: as the US government had forbidden, in 1947, any sell of American weapons was maybe possible to buy, on the US internal market, war weapons? I admit to be a little puzzled.
Bye EC
PS for Niglefe only: my purpose was not to collect corruption stories about British soldiers. It was enough to see them at work in Lebanon in 1983-1984 to have got a low opinion about this subject. EC
So why shouldn't the Brits provide 5000 .303 rifles to Jewish settlements for self-defence in the 1930s? Then there was the Palestine Regt. Clearly Wingate wasn't 'sacked' because he remained in the army. Brit officers postings were only for 2 or 3 years so its often difficult to determine if they have been moved early, and whether it was by push or pull.
It was extremely difficult to bribe Brit soldiers to provide arms, it's safe to bet that it was tried in many parts of the world. It all comes down to the control and accounting processes and the system of unit, district and command audits, plus the requirement to count weapons extremely frequently and only issue weapons from armouries when authorised to individuals who sign for them. This means there is a chain of accountability, furthermore 'losing' a weapon was a military offence, no doubt a few decided that their personal circumstances of the moment were worth the short term benefit against the less immediate downside. Don't forget that even 1939-45 BF Palestine was not an operational area so peacetime accounting would be in force. The other source was, of course, straight theft from depots, possibly with the connivance of locally employed staff.
As the old saying goes 2 swallows don't make a summer, but of course it was in the interest of the Jewish underground to cast the Brits in a bad light so a bit of creative exaggeration would be a good thing. If there was a widepread problem then it would have received command attention, there would have been Boards of Inquiry (at least, perhaps a Court of Inquiry if there was a large theft from a depot under suspicious circumstances) and the records will exist in the PRO. Of course like court martial records they may not have been released yet because individuals could still be alive, but I think they would have been indexed.
Immediately post war it was different, there would have been large stocks of weapons in depots in the region and in the transition to peace accounting was probably not as stringent.
It was extremely difficult to bribe Brit soldiers to provide arms, it's safe to bet that it was tried in many parts of the world. It all comes down to the control and accounting processes and the system of unit, district and command audits, plus the requirement to count weapons extremely frequently and only issue weapons from armouries when authorised to individuals who sign for them. This means there is a chain of accountability, furthermore 'losing' a weapon was a military offence, no doubt a few decided that their personal circumstances of the moment were worth the short term benefit against the less immediate downside. Don't forget that even 1939-45 BF Palestine was not an operational area so peacetime accounting would be in force. The other source was, of course, straight theft from depots, possibly with the connivance of locally employed staff.
As the old saying goes 2 swallows don't make a summer, but of course it was in the interest of the Jewish underground to cast the Brits in a bad light so a bit of creative exaggeration would be a good thing. If there was a widepread problem then it would have received command attention, there would have been Boards of Inquiry (at least, perhaps a Court of Inquiry if there was a large theft from a depot under suspicious circumstances) and the records will exist in the PRO. Of course like court martial records they may not have been released yet because individuals could still be alive, but I think they would have been indexed.
Immediately post war it was different, there would have been large stocks of weapons in depots in the region and in the transition to peace accounting was probably not as stringent.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Enrico,
I think you may be overstating the near certainty that the weapons concened must have been of British origin.
For a start, a substantial WWI campaign had been fought across Palestine and tens of thousands of Turkish rifles had probably been discarded then.
Most would have fallen into Arab hands, and many Palestinian Arabs were certainly also armed with rifles in the 1930s.
I have a history of the Palestine Police Force. I will see what that says about this issue.
Just to firm up my earlier post. The Indian Air Force managed to rebuild 42 (!) Liberators after the war. There were clearly a lot of abandoned but potentially serviceable aircraft across the globe after WWII, many available for cash.
Cheers,
Sid.
I think you may be overstating the near certainty that the weapons concened must have been of British origin.
For a start, a substantial WWI campaign had been fought across Palestine and tens of thousands of Turkish rifles had probably been discarded then.
Most would have fallen into Arab hands, and many Palestinian Arabs were certainly also armed with rifles in the 1930s.
I have a history of the Palestine Police Force. I will see what that says about this issue.
Just to firm up my earlier post. The Indian Air Force managed to rebuild 42 (!) Liberators after the war. There were clearly a lot of abandoned but potentially serviceable aircraft across the globe after WWII, many available for cash.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Enrico Cernuschi
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It's clear I was not enough clear in my description.
The 5.000 about rifles I was speaking about were clandestine weapons.
The British never delivered weapons to anyone. They were not so dumb. Chairman Mao said that the power is born on the barrel of a rifle and British too know, perhaps in a less poetic way, this simple principle.
They were, then, no fool so no native was ever allowed to control weapons depots.
There was no Palestine Regt. in the Thirties.
About Wingate biography I suggest to give a look at Christopher Sykes' one (Orde Wingate, 1959) to have a more clear idea about his 1939 vicissitudines.
Once we all agree that by bribery was impossible to get some thousands of rifles in the Twenties and Thirties BEFORE World War II and the following plenty of weapons we can identify some facts and subsequent options.
First: photo evidence, memories ect, give all 7,7 mm cartridges.
It was a logical chose as this was the British Lee-Enfield ammunition. For any resistance, rebel group ect. the logistic must (and the easiest way to act) is to use the same kind of ammunition of the enemy if you have not a sure chain of supllies, like the one granted by SOE and OSS during the Second World War in Western Europe.
The Lee Enfield was the only rifle able to use this cartridge.
Photos, again, of the 1948 period, shows only Lee Enfield togheter with the famous CZ Mausers obrained by Stalin in 1947-1948.
We are speaking about the about 5.000-6.000 weapons (rifles with some machine guns) the Hagana and the Irgun had before 1939 and had saved, in a clandestine way, during Second World War.
This build up begin in 1920 with the (of course secret) institution of Hagana.
The final purpose of this organization was to arrive at an indipendent jew state fighting for this aim both Arabs and British, so stop with British deliveries of weapons to Jewish colons ect. It was a rebel (or resistence, if you prefer) movment not a Whitehall sponsored party.
5.000 rifles (and the necessary ammunitions) are a great number of light weapons.
The weapons sellers, like the famous Cummings, are controlled by the various governments who use them, so the chance to buy thousands of rifles without the OK of a government, the only able to control such a flow of materials and to give the cover for smuggle them, is a material impossibility.
As Lee Enfield was not a commercial success and was used only by British and Imperial forces we have only some options:
A) the Turkish clue, that Sid envisaged cleverly. Brilliant but I have got a question. As the 5.000 a.m. rifles were efficient they needed spare parts. The Arabs too had about 6.000 men with flank weapons but only after the war, when to purchase light weapons was easier, as we all agree. Before British estimates were less than 2.000 in quote a worste state.
Spare parts imply factory deliveries. It's possible to cannibalize weapons to get spare parts but, statistically, this means to dougle the a.m. numbers. It's true that the British suffered serious defeats bt the Tuks (Kut el Amara in 1916) but 10.000-14.000 rifles intact in Turkish hands are too many. In M.E. the propriety of a rifle is still today a status symbol, the Turks had to import light weapon courtesy of USSR against the british before and during the Chanak crisis of 1922 and the British again were very careful to recover all the weapons in the M.E. durign the Twenties to control this theatre. I would dismiss, so, the Turkish clue as a significant source of weapons for the Palestine Jews.
B) The German path. Germant had surely seized, durign World War I, a lot of British rifles ion th ebattlefieds of Western Europe but the Versailles Treaty imposed to give back all this kind of material in 1919.
Germans could hid them, of coure, but Britain was the only western support they had in Western Europe since the Silesian settlement of 1919 until the 1935 London Naval Treaty if not until Munchen 1938, so it's difficoult to think about German deliveires. The idea of Hitler arming the Jews against the beloved British is not a probable one, I think.
c) The British government selling weapons secretely to the Jews knowing their indipendency plans. Less and less probable.
d) The only other manifacturer of 7,7 mm rifles was the US government.
And here the matter become quite an interesting one, indeed.
As American war weapons (like the forst Thompson machine guns) were sent in Ireland to support that war of indipendence against the British since 1919 we could believe that the chance of a similar initiative against the British Empire in Palestine was not impossible.
The problem, so, become one only: duplicity of the US Government (Roosevelt's administration included) or the real chance, by an internal lobby, to smuggle war weapons from USA against the will of his own government? The same order of ideas would be to apply at the 1947 embargo I recalled in my previous one.
Bye EC
The 5.000 about rifles I was speaking about were clandestine weapons.
The British never delivered weapons to anyone. They were not so dumb. Chairman Mao said that the power is born on the barrel of a rifle and British too know, perhaps in a less poetic way, this simple principle.
They were, then, no fool so no native was ever allowed to control weapons depots.
There was no Palestine Regt. in the Thirties.
About Wingate biography I suggest to give a look at Christopher Sykes' one (Orde Wingate, 1959) to have a more clear idea about his 1939 vicissitudines.
Once we all agree that by bribery was impossible to get some thousands of rifles in the Twenties and Thirties BEFORE World War II and the following plenty of weapons we can identify some facts and subsequent options.
First: photo evidence, memories ect, give all 7,7 mm cartridges.
It was a logical chose as this was the British Lee-Enfield ammunition. For any resistance, rebel group ect. the logistic must (and the easiest way to act) is to use the same kind of ammunition of the enemy if you have not a sure chain of supllies, like the one granted by SOE and OSS during the Second World War in Western Europe.
The Lee Enfield was the only rifle able to use this cartridge.
Photos, again, of the 1948 period, shows only Lee Enfield togheter with the famous CZ Mausers obrained by Stalin in 1947-1948.
We are speaking about the about 5.000-6.000 weapons (rifles with some machine guns) the Hagana and the Irgun had before 1939 and had saved, in a clandestine way, during Second World War.
This build up begin in 1920 with the (of course secret) institution of Hagana.
The final purpose of this organization was to arrive at an indipendent jew state fighting for this aim both Arabs and British, so stop with British deliveries of weapons to Jewish colons ect. It was a rebel (or resistence, if you prefer) movment not a Whitehall sponsored party.
5.000 rifles (and the necessary ammunitions) are a great number of light weapons.
The weapons sellers, like the famous Cummings, are controlled by the various governments who use them, so the chance to buy thousands of rifles without the OK of a government, the only able to control such a flow of materials and to give the cover for smuggle them, is a material impossibility.
As Lee Enfield was not a commercial success and was used only by British and Imperial forces we have only some options:
A) the Turkish clue, that Sid envisaged cleverly. Brilliant but I have got a question. As the 5.000 a.m. rifles were efficient they needed spare parts. The Arabs too had about 6.000 men with flank weapons but only after the war, when to purchase light weapons was easier, as we all agree. Before British estimates were less than 2.000 in quote a worste state.
Spare parts imply factory deliveries. It's possible to cannibalize weapons to get spare parts but, statistically, this means to dougle the a.m. numbers. It's true that the British suffered serious defeats bt the Tuks (Kut el Amara in 1916) but 10.000-14.000 rifles intact in Turkish hands are too many. In M.E. the propriety of a rifle is still today a status symbol, the Turks had to import light weapon courtesy of USSR against the british before and during the Chanak crisis of 1922 and the British again were very careful to recover all the weapons in the M.E. durign the Twenties to control this theatre. I would dismiss, so, the Turkish clue as a significant source of weapons for the Palestine Jews.
B) The German path. Germant had surely seized, durign World War I, a lot of British rifles ion th ebattlefieds of Western Europe but the Versailles Treaty imposed to give back all this kind of material in 1919.
Germans could hid them, of coure, but Britain was the only western support they had in Western Europe since the Silesian settlement of 1919 until the 1935 London Naval Treaty if not until Munchen 1938, so it's difficoult to think about German deliveires. The idea of Hitler arming the Jews against the beloved British is not a probable one, I think.
c) The British government selling weapons secretely to the Jews knowing their indipendency plans. Less and less probable.
d) The only other manifacturer of 7,7 mm rifles was the US government.
And here the matter become quite an interesting one, indeed.
As American war weapons (like the forst Thompson machine guns) were sent in Ireland to support that war of indipendence against the British since 1919 we could believe that the chance of a similar initiative against the British Empire in Palestine was not impossible.
The problem, so, become one only: duplicity of the US Government (Roosevelt's administration included) or the real chance, by an internal lobby, to smuggle war weapons from USA against the will of his own government? The same order of ideas would be to apply at the 1947 embargo I recalled in my previous one.
Bye EC
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John Kilmartin
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Hi Enrico,
Might not the source of these rifles be either Newfoundland which went broke during the Depression and would have sold off any Enfields they had retained after the First World War or Ireland that vastly reduced its military after the end of the Civil War? I'm not thinking that either would have sold their surplus rifles directly to the Jews but to an intermediary who would have sold them on the open market.
Might not the source of these rifles be either Newfoundland which went broke during the Depression and would have sold off any Enfields they had retained after the First World War or Ireland that vastly reduced its military after the end of the Civil War? I'm not thinking that either would have sold their surplus rifles directly to the Jews but to an intermediary who would have sold them on the open market.
' Strip war of the mantle of its glories and excitement, and it will disclose a gibbering ghost of pain , grief, dissappointment and despair'
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Thank you John,
this could be quite an useful suggestion. Anyway Newfoundland forces were under Imperial sipervision so it's quite difficoult that military (non hunting) rifles could be sold in a market which was not open but, necessarly, a clandestine one. An efficient organization like the British one had to try to control at th esource this kind of traffic to avoid any real menace at his internal integrity.
In 1935, for example, they intercepted a 800 rifles delivery in Haifa for the Hagana (the weapons were the original ones presented to an Ethiopian band in 1934 to seize from the Italians the wells of Ual Ual under the supervision of a Colonel Clifford who had had by the Colonial Office the duty to drew the border line between the Italian and British Somaliland in Ogaden according the Zeila pact just signed between Addis Ababa and Londos; after the Ethiopian defeat in that remote country the weapons and the British equipment delivered to the unfortunate band of Omar Samantar were transferred by the SIM - The Italian Army Secret Service of. Gen. Roatta- to the Jews of Palestine but discovered by the I.S. under the cover up of a concrete delivery at Haifa closing, so, the full circle).
The Irish theory is a very interesting one. It would however confirm, I think, a US commistion as someone had to pay for the weapons and their carry in a disguised - and so expensive - way. Irish forces were, anyway, quite tiny and the dnager of a new clash with the British was, until 1938 at least, a real one. Could they dismiss some thousands of rifles withouth a sure channel of new supplies, if necessary (and here a possbile US inteference comes back).
Your opinion?
Bye EC
this could be quite an useful suggestion. Anyway Newfoundland forces were under Imperial sipervision so it's quite difficoult that military (non hunting) rifles could be sold in a market which was not open but, necessarly, a clandestine one. An efficient organization like the British one had to try to control at th esource this kind of traffic to avoid any real menace at his internal integrity.
In 1935, for example, they intercepted a 800 rifles delivery in Haifa for the Hagana (the weapons were the original ones presented to an Ethiopian band in 1934 to seize from the Italians the wells of Ual Ual under the supervision of a Colonel Clifford who had had by the Colonial Office the duty to drew the border line between the Italian and British Somaliland in Ogaden according the Zeila pact just signed between Addis Ababa and Londos; after the Ethiopian defeat in that remote country the weapons and the British equipment delivered to the unfortunate band of Omar Samantar were transferred by the SIM - The Italian Army Secret Service of. Gen. Roatta- to the Jews of Palestine but discovered by the I.S. under the cover up of a concrete delivery at Haifa closing, so, the full circle).
The Irish theory is a very interesting one. It would however confirm, I think, a US commistion as someone had to pay for the weapons and their carry in a disguised - and so expensive - way. Irish forces were, anyway, quite tiny and the dnager of a new clash with the British was, until 1938 at least, a real one. Could they dismiss some thousands of rifles withouth a sure channel of new supplies, if necessary (and here a possbile US inteference comes back).
Your opinion?
Bye EC
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John Kilmartin
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Hi Enrico,
Newfoundland was a Dominion prior to their going bankrupt so what they did with any assets owned by the government was its business. One of the main causes of the bankruptcy was that Newfoundland actually paid off most of the debt they acquired in purchasing all the necessary items they used in fighting the Great War.
As for Ireland the government was under financial pressure as a result not only of the Depression but also the 'Economic War' when trade with Britain was severely curtailed due to a dispute over paying land annuities owed as a result of land reform. The ability of the Irish to successfully defend themselves from invasion would not be greatly changed by a few thousand rifles. The Irish historically have believed 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' very strongly. With that in mind selling arms to a group that was fighting the British would seem to be in their best interest. That being said I have no actual knowledge that this was the actual case.
Newfoundland was a Dominion prior to their going bankrupt so what they did with any assets owned by the government was its business. One of the main causes of the bankruptcy was that Newfoundland actually paid off most of the debt they acquired in purchasing all the necessary items they used in fighting the Great War.
As for Ireland the government was under financial pressure as a result not only of the Depression but also the 'Economic War' when trade with Britain was severely curtailed due to a dispute over paying land annuities owed as a result of land reform. The ability of the Irish to successfully defend themselves from invasion would not be greatly changed by a few thousand rifles. The Irish historically have believed 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' very strongly. With that in mind selling arms to a group that was fighting the British would seem to be in their best interest. That being said I have no actual knowledge that this was the actual case.
' Strip war of the mantle of its glories and excitement, and it will disclose a gibbering ghost of pain , grief, dissappointment and despair'
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sid guttridge
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- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Guys,
The following is from "A Job Well Done" by Howard Horne (U.K. 1982). It is "a history of the Palestine Police Force 1920-1948."
It appears that Palestinian Jews had two sources of weapons in the 1930s and 1940s - official and unofficial.
Since the first Zionists arrived in the 19th Century Jewish and Arab settlements had been allowed armed watchmen by the Turks. However, the British tried to disarm everyone in the 1920s, which resulted in secret armouries being held by all sides.
During the Arab Troubles in Palestine in the 1930s the British created an official Jewish auxiliary police force as a sort of home guard for threatened Jewish settlements. The Jewish Settlement Police (JSP) was divided into four:
1. A full time trained force of 750 men salaried by the government.
2. A back-up partly trained force for 1. of 750 men who could be ready for duty within two hours.
3. A further 1,500 largely untrained men who could be made available for duty in 24 hours.
4. A final list of 1,500 untrained men supplied by the various settlements of men available to support 1., 2. and 3.
Arms (rifles) for these 4,500 men were supplied by the government. Arms and ammunition for 3. and 4. were originally kept at police stations and for 1. and 2. in sealed armouries in certain Jewish settlements. The seals were not to be broken unless there was an attack. There was clearly some abuse because later the arms and ammunition for 3. and 4. were also moved to sealed armouries.
The government was aware that there was a strong overlap between between JSP membership and membership of the Haganna, the Jews' own unofficial defence force, which also had its own secret armouries in each settlement. However, for pragmatic reasons it overlooked this relationship.
The Arab Troubles had been controlled by the beginning of WWII and the rationale for the armed JSP had declined, but the British found it impolitic to try to disarm Palestine's Jews during the Second World War. When the war ended many members of the JSP had graduated into the Haganna's elite wing, the Palmach. The JSP was never formally disbanded and in late 1947 it "melted into the Haganna mobilisation schemes".
Thus it would appear that about 4,500 British rifles passed unpoliced from official British hands to the Haganna over 1937-1947.
Cheers,
Sid.
The following is from "A Job Well Done" by Howard Horne (U.K. 1982). It is "a history of the Palestine Police Force 1920-1948."
It appears that Palestinian Jews had two sources of weapons in the 1930s and 1940s - official and unofficial.
Since the first Zionists arrived in the 19th Century Jewish and Arab settlements had been allowed armed watchmen by the Turks. However, the British tried to disarm everyone in the 1920s, which resulted in secret armouries being held by all sides.
During the Arab Troubles in Palestine in the 1930s the British created an official Jewish auxiliary police force as a sort of home guard for threatened Jewish settlements. The Jewish Settlement Police (JSP) was divided into four:
1. A full time trained force of 750 men salaried by the government.
2. A back-up partly trained force for 1. of 750 men who could be ready for duty within two hours.
3. A further 1,500 largely untrained men who could be made available for duty in 24 hours.
4. A final list of 1,500 untrained men supplied by the various settlements of men available to support 1., 2. and 3.
Arms (rifles) for these 4,500 men were supplied by the government. Arms and ammunition for 3. and 4. were originally kept at police stations and for 1. and 2. in sealed armouries in certain Jewish settlements. The seals were not to be broken unless there was an attack. There was clearly some abuse because later the arms and ammunition for 3. and 4. were also moved to sealed armouries.
The government was aware that there was a strong overlap between between JSP membership and membership of the Haganna, the Jews' own unofficial defence force, which also had its own secret armouries in each settlement. However, for pragmatic reasons it overlooked this relationship.
The Arab Troubles had been controlled by the beginning of WWII and the rationale for the armed JSP had declined, but the British found it impolitic to try to disarm Palestine's Jews during the Second World War. When the war ended many members of the JSP had graduated into the Haganna's elite wing, the Palmach. The JSP was never formally disbanded and in late 1947 it "melted into the Haganna mobilisation schemes".
Thus it would appear that about 4,500 British rifles passed unpoliced from official British hands to the Haganna over 1937-1947.
Cheers,
Sid.
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Enrico Cernuschi
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sid guttridge
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Hi Enrico,
I have been reading other parts of "A Job Well Done." It appears that the Palestine Police systematically destroyed their equipment rather than let it fall into either Arab or Jewish hands.
However, the fate of the weaponry allocated to the JSP is not specifically mentioned. At present the best I could say is that up to 4,500 British rifles allocated to the JSP may have passed into the Haganna over 1937-47, the vast majority at the end of that period.
Cheers,
Sid.
I have been reading other parts of "A Job Well Done." It appears that the Palestine Police systematically destroyed their equipment rather than let it fall into either Arab or Jewish hands.
However, the fate of the weaponry allocated to the JSP is not specifically mentioned. At present the best I could say is that up to 4,500 British rifles allocated to the JSP may have passed into the Haganna over 1937-47, the vast majority at the end of that period.
Cheers,
Sid.
-
Enrico Cernuschi
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- Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2002 2:05 am
- Location: Pavia
This new piece of news is an interesting one confirming that the British were consequent with their quite understable purpose to save their control of the territory.
In this prospective is difficoult to think that the Jewish Agency could consider, before the Second World war, during their 1932-1938 talks with Mr. Mussolini the Police rifles as a lease which could be used in sight of the indipendence plan.
If we cannot count the 4.500 a.m. Lee Enfields in the total 5-6.000 weapons available for the Jewish forces in 1939 the original problem is back.
Some thousands of .303 rifles were a strategic issue in the Palestine of the Thirties. What government worked to grant the Jews these weapons against the British will? USA, Italy or both?
Bye EC
In this prospective is difficoult to think that the Jewish Agency could consider, before the Second World war, during their 1932-1938 talks with Mr. Mussolini the Police rifles as a lease which could be used in sight of the indipendence plan.
If we cannot count the 4.500 a.m. Lee Enfields in the total 5-6.000 weapons available for the Jewish forces in 1939 the original problem is back.
Some thousands of .303 rifles were a strategic issue in the Palestine of the Thirties. What government worked to grant the Jews these weapons against the British will? USA, Italy or both?
Bye EC
-
sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Enrico,
Why are you only looking for a "government"?
Zionists had contacts wherever there were Jewish communities and these communities were usually materially well off and supportive. Hundreds of thousands of Jews made it to Palestine illegally between the wars without the connivance of governments. By comparison, the purchase, smuggling and hiding of a few thousand rifles would be comparitively easy.
Cheers,
Sid.
P.S. "A Job Well Done" mentions an Italian spy caught in Palestine during the war.
Why are you only looking for a "government"?
Zionists had contacts wherever there were Jewish communities and these communities were usually materially well off and supportive. Hundreds of thousands of Jews made it to Palestine illegally between the wars without the connivance of governments. By comparison, the purchase, smuggling and hiding of a few thousand rifles would be comparitively easy.
Cheers,
Sid.
P.S. "A Job Well Done" mentions an Italian spy caught in Palestine during the war.