The official doctrine is that Stalin was the peace-loving ally who was suddenly attacked by Hitler. In reality, Stalin was planning to take over Europe. For that purpose he ensured the victory of the Nazi party in Germany, supplied them with military technology and tactics, and did everything possible to ignite conflict between them and the West. Stalin wanted Europe to be torn apart by war. This would give him the perfect possible oppurtunity to pretend to be neutral and then invade. Hitler detected his plans and launched a suicide attack in 1941 because it was his only chance. Stalin's invasion date was estimated to be 2 weeks after Hitler attacked.
There has never been anything in history this controversial that's so easy to prove. However, historians refuse to believe it because they don't like the idea of communism being the cause of WWII.
I look forward to comments or questions.
--Ron Cogan, High Falls, NY
Stalin started WWII by putting Hitler to power
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Enrico Cernuschi
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Well I think it's a little crude way to desctibe the trial of the things but it's, anyway, enough sound.
As a matter of fact Stalin dictated the German Communist Party in 1932-1933 quite a suicide line. I still think it was more a mistake than a deliberate tactic (Stalin was a genius in mistakes of huge dimensions but had the good habit to shoot before anyone who could critic him in front of the Politburo) and that uncle Joe purpose was only to fight, according the best Comunist book, socialist before any other enemy opening so the gate at the Nazi tiger.
About the Russian vision of Germany (and Italy) as the pefect and only available can-opener of the European peace evidence are quite easy to find, from the Rapallo treaty between USSR and Germany to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
The pre emptive nature of Barbasossa has been yet debated in this forum many times. I can say about this subject I stll believe, in spite of the lack a confession wrote by Stalin with his own blood in front of a notary, that the German attack preceded of some weeks the Russian invasion of Europe.
Moral: CPT post number 1 is a good beinning of a new member of the Forum who is able to find the hearth of the matters.
With my compliments EC
As a matter of fact Stalin dictated the German Communist Party in 1932-1933 quite a suicide line. I still think it was more a mistake than a deliberate tactic (Stalin was a genius in mistakes of huge dimensions but had the good habit to shoot before anyone who could critic him in front of the Politburo) and that uncle Joe purpose was only to fight, according the best Comunist book, socialist before any other enemy opening so the gate at the Nazi tiger.
About the Russian vision of Germany (and Italy) as the pefect and only available can-opener of the European peace evidence are quite easy to find, from the Rapallo treaty between USSR and Germany to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
The pre emptive nature of Barbasossa has been yet debated in this forum many times. I can say about this subject I stll believe, in spite of the lack a confession wrote by Stalin with his own blood in front of a notary, that the German attack preceded of some weeks the Russian invasion of Europe.
Moral: CPT post number 1 is a good beinning of a new member of the Forum who is able to find the hearth of the matters.
With my compliments EC
Re: Stalin started WWII by putting Hitler to power
Go on then, prove itCPT wrote:There has never been anything in history this controversial that's so easy to prove.
--Ron Cogan, High Falls, NY
if in doubt, PANIC !!!!
I didn't want to overwhelm the original post with too much text but can elaborate more at this point.
Sorry about the lenght but such an issue requires detail.
The fact that the Soviet Union had the desire to occupy Europe is well known. In 1919 they formed Soviet republics in some European states but they were defeated. In 1920 they invaded with the plan of conquering all the way “to the walls of Paris and London.” (S. Cohen. 'Bukharin' 106). They were stopped in Poland mostly because they were weak from the civil war. In 1923 they failed in an attempted coup d'etat in Germany. By the time Stalin was in power, he realized two things: 1. Europe will be vulnerable to revolution only during war. 2. It would be better not to start this war by invading. It was much easier to feign neutrality and then strike while the other countries have exhausted themselves.
Stalin ordered the first Russian translation of Mein Kampf and became very interested in Hitler. He realized that if Hitler came to power, he would fight against France, and consequently, England. However, in 1932 Hitler’s party was bankrupt and in debt. It had more votes than any other party, but it did not have the majority. It could not continue because nobody would lend it any more money. Hitler had to either flee or kill himself. But… Stalin came to the rescue. Stalin commanded the German communists, who controlled 25% of the votes, to give total support to the Nazis, giving them the majority that they needed to win. “Without Stalin there would have been no Hitler, there would have been no Gestapo!” – Leon Trotsky (Bulletin of the Opposition. Numbers 52-53. October 1938). When Hitler came to power the German communist party was destroyed but Stalin got what he wanted: a fanatic in power waiting for the chance to get revenge for the French Treaty of Versailles.
However, that treaty was still in effect and it prohibited Germany from forming an army. Once again, Stalin gave his aid. He rebuilt the German Army from scratch. He sent tanks, and industrial equipment and designs for making them to Germany in secret. Stalin trained German generals on Soviet territory and gave them testing grounds. The modern German tank army was born in Kazan, Russia. The Soviet Union had already developed 'blitzkrieg' tactics earlier and used them in Mongolia. It gave these tactics to Hitler.
Hitler, armed and fanatical, was perfect for the Soviet Union’s aim and he was officially proclaimed the “Icebreaker for the World Revolution.” After Hitler’s seizure of power, everything possible was done by Stalin to ignite conflict between Germany and the Allies. The culmination of this was the Molotov-Ribbentrop nonaggression pact of 1939, which gave Hitler the green light to attack the West. The plan was this: After Hitler destroyed Europe’s armies and governments, Stalin would invade as a "liberator from the Nazis" and take control of all of it, including Germany, France, England, Italy, and Spain. Stalin’s plot was a masterpiece; even today most people still aren’t aware about it. However, he failed in his secret attempt because Hitler found out about his plans and launched a last-resort preventive strike at the USSR in 1941. He destroyed most of the Soviet Union’s offensive capacity, removing the immediate threat to Europe. Had this action not been taken, the Soviet flag would have flown in London by the end of 1941.
The proof the Soviet Union was preparing a massive invasion of Europe in the summer of 1941 can be found in the following. The first person to research this topic extensively and write many books on it was Viktor Suvorov, a former Soviet GRU spy. Most of his facts come directly from memoirs and books by high-ranking Soviet officials (Stalin, Zhukov, Meretskov, etc.), official Soviet reports, and Soviet state newsjournals. Any factual information I subsequently state is from Icebreaker by Viktor Suvorov, unless otherwise stated.
By 1941 the Soviet Union assembled the largest army in history. 3 echelons divided into 31 armies were on the western frontier. The largest of these, the 9th on the border with Romania, had more tanks than the wehrmacht.
In 1939, the percent of the Germany economy focused on war was 9%. In the Soviet Union it was 25%. By 1941, Germany’s percent rose to 19, while it was 43% in the USSR.
“Hitler’s military contained 4 blitzkrieg mechanized tank groups. Three were used in the invasion of France, and four were used in Operation Barbarossa. Each one usually had between 600 and 1,000 tanks, and on occasions as many as 1,250 tanks, along with a considerable number of infantry and artillery.” (Suvorov, p.141-142). The Soviet equivalent of a blitzkrieg tank group was a shock army. Shock armies had about 1,000 tanks, sometimes much more. The only other difference is that Hitler had 4 tank groups while Stalin had sixteen shock armies. All 16 of the armies located in west Russia were of shock army status. Every one of these armies, except for the 23rd which was near Finland, was situated directly on the frontier with Germany and its ally Romania.
This military force could not be used for defense for the following reasons:
The most widely produced Soviet tank before 1941 was the Mark BT. It is completely unknown because it was thrown out when Germany invaded. This tank was designed to be used on well-paved roads found in Germany and France, roads which were absent in the Soviet Union. It was useless on Soviet territory. Thousands were abandoned. Trains that were delivering them to the west rolled them out and left them in the forest.
A country concerned with its defense makes a security zone saturated with mines, traps, mined bridges, partisan detachments, fortification lines, and an absence of roads and railways. The Soviet Union had all these indispensable defensive obstacles. With them in place, it would be nearly impossible for any force on earth to reach Moscow from the west. However, after the outbreak of World War II, the Soviet Union did a very surprising thing. It completely destroyed its security zone, destroyed its impassible Stalin Line, removed the mines, disbanded the partisans, cut the barbed wire on the frontier, and built roads and railways leading directly to the German border. Not only that, but Soviet armies, supplies, ammunition, oil, and airfields were placed right on the border! General Puganov placed his command headquarters within sight of German frontier guards. (Kochetkov, C Zakrytymi Lyukami, 8). Obviously not preparations for defense but for offense.
Bridges over the Dnieper River were removed of mines. The Dnieper Naval Flotilla was disbanded and the Danube Flotilla was created in its place. Where could the Danube Flotilla move except up the Danube River into Romania?
After the German invasion, the Soviet army was operating with improvisation. It had no war plans. How could a country assemble an army for defense without its generals making war plans? And yet before the war the generals were making war plans at a radical pace. Zhukov and others were working 15 to 17 hours a day on war plans. The only reason that these war plans were not used was because they were plans for an offensive war, not a defensive one.
The 12th and 18th Armies of the First Strategic Echelon were special mountain armies. They were placed at a point which was flat and/or hilly. To the west were the German and Romanian Carpathian Mountains. Its only conceivable function could be to operate in these mountains.
Soviet commanders carried out lengthy reconnaissance missions in which they studied German terrain. Demolition specialists studied enemy minefields instead of laying their own.
The Red Army had maps of Germany, Romania, and Berlin instead of maps of their own territory. Every Russian soldier had German phrasebooks with phrases like “where are party leaders hiding” and “where is drinkable water”.
When Zhukov reported that the Germans were invading, Stalin, Molotov, and Beria absolutely refused to believe it. If they did not believe this, then for what were they preparing themselves?
Through the pact of 1939, the USSR established a common border with Germany. This is only done when an attack is being planned.
There's more but that's enough. Thanks to EC for confirming.
--Ron Cogan
Sorry about the lenght but such an issue requires detail.
The fact that the Soviet Union had the desire to occupy Europe is well known. In 1919 they formed Soviet republics in some European states but they were defeated. In 1920 they invaded with the plan of conquering all the way “to the walls of Paris and London.” (S. Cohen. 'Bukharin' 106). They were stopped in Poland mostly because they were weak from the civil war. In 1923 they failed in an attempted coup d'etat in Germany. By the time Stalin was in power, he realized two things: 1. Europe will be vulnerable to revolution only during war. 2. It would be better not to start this war by invading. It was much easier to feign neutrality and then strike while the other countries have exhausted themselves.
Stalin ordered the first Russian translation of Mein Kampf and became very interested in Hitler. He realized that if Hitler came to power, he would fight against France, and consequently, England. However, in 1932 Hitler’s party was bankrupt and in debt. It had more votes than any other party, but it did not have the majority. It could not continue because nobody would lend it any more money. Hitler had to either flee or kill himself. But… Stalin came to the rescue. Stalin commanded the German communists, who controlled 25% of the votes, to give total support to the Nazis, giving them the majority that they needed to win. “Without Stalin there would have been no Hitler, there would have been no Gestapo!” – Leon Trotsky (Bulletin of the Opposition. Numbers 52-53. October 1938). When Hitler came to power the German communist party was destroyed but Stalin got what he wanted: a fanatic in power waiting for the chance to get revenge for the French Treaty of Versailles.
However, that treaty was still in effect and it prohibited Germany from forming an army. Once again, Stalin gave his aid. He rebuilt the German Army from scratch. He sent tanks, and industrial equipment and designs for making them to Germany in secret. Stalin trained German generals on Soviet territory and gave them testing grounds. The modern German tank army was born in Kazan, Russia. The Soviet Union had already developed 'blitzkrieg' tactics earlier and used them in Mongolia. It gave these tactics to Hitler.
Hitler, armed and fanatical, was perfect for the Soviet Union’s aim and he was officially proclaimed the “Icebreaker for the World Revolution.” After Hitler’s seizure of power, everything possible was done by Stalin to ignite conflict between Germany and the Allies. The culmination of this was the Molotov-Ribbentrop nonaggression pact of 1939, which gave Hitler the green light to attack the West. The plan was this: After Hitler destroyed Europe’s armies and governments, Stalin would invade as a "liberator from the Nazis" and take control of all of it, including Germany, France, England, Italy, and Spain. Stalin’s plot was a masterpiece; even today most people still aren’t aware about it. However, he failed in his secret attempt because Hitler found out about his plans and launched a last-resort preventive strike at the USSR in 1941. He destroyed most of the Soviet Union’s offensive capacity, removing the immediate threat to Europe. Had this action not been taken, the Soviet flag would have flown in London by the end of 1941.
The proof the Soviet Union was preparing a massive invasion of Europe in the summer of 1941 can be found in the following. The first person to research this topic extensively and write many books on it was Viktor Suvorov, a former Soviet GRU spy. Most of his facts come directly from memoirs and books by high-ranking Soviet officials (Stalin, Zhukov, Meretskov, etc.), official Soviet reports, and Soviet state newsjournals. Any factual information I subsequently state is from Icebreaker by Viktor Suvorov, unless otherwise stated.
By 1941 the Soviet Union assembled the largest army in history. 3 echelons divided into 31 armies were on the western frontier. The largest of these, the 9th on the border with Romania, had more tanks than the wehrmacht.
In 1939, the percent of the Germany economy focused on war was 9%. In the Soviet Union it was 25%. By 1941, Germany’s percent rose to 19, while it was 43% in the USSR.
“Hitler’s military contained 4 blitzkrieg mechanized tank groups. Three were used in the invasion of France, and four were used in Operation Barbarossa. Each one usually had between 600 and 1,000 tanks, and on occasions as many as 1,250 tanks, along with a considerable number of infantry and artillery.” (Suvorov, p.141-142). The Soviet equivalent of a blitzkrieg tank group was a shock army. Shock armies had about 1,000 tanks, sometimes much more. The only other difference is that Hitler had 4 tank groups while Stalin had sixteen shock armies. All 16 of the armies located in west Russia were of shock army status. Every one of these armies, except for the 23rd which was near Finland, was situated directly on the frontier with Germany and its ally Romania.
This military force could not be used for defense for the following reasons:
The most widely produced Soviet tank before 1941 was the Mark BT. It is completely unknown because it was thrown out when Germany invaded. This tank was designed to be used on well-paved roads found in Germany and France, roads which were absent in the Soviet Union. It was useless on Soviet territory. Thousands were abandoned. Trains that were delivering them to the west rolled them out and left them in the forest.
A country concerned with its defense makes a security zone saturated with mines, traps, mined bridges, partisan detachments, fortification lines, and an absence of roads and railways. The Soviet Union had all these indispensable defensive obstacles. With them in place, it would be nearly impossible for any force on earth to reach Moscow from the west. However, after the outbreak of World War II, the Soviet Union did a very surprising thing. It completely destroyed its security zone, destroyed its impassible Stalin Line, removed the mines, disbanded the partisans, cut the barbed wire on the frontier, and built roads and railways leading directly to the German border. Not only that, but Soviet armies, supplies, ammunition, oil, and airfields were placed right on the border! General Puganov placed his command headquarters within sight of German frontier guards. (Kochetkov, C Zakrytymi Lyukami, 8). Obviously not preparations for defense but for offense.
Bridges over the Dnieper River were removed of mines. The Dnieper Naval Flotilla was disbanded and the Danube Flotilla was created in its place. Where could the Danube Flotilla move except up the Danube River into Romania?
After the German invasion, the Soviet army was operating with improvisation. It had no war plans. How could a country assemble an army for defense without its generals making war plans? And yet before the war the generals were making war plans at a radical pace. Zhukov and others were working 15 to 17 hours a day on war plans. The only reason that these war plans were not used was because they were plans for an offensive war, not a defensive one.
The 12th and 18th Armies of the First Strategic Echelon were special mountain armies. They were placed at a point which was flat and/or hilly. To the west were the German and Romanian Carpathian Mountains. Its only conceivable function could be to operate in these mountains.
Soviet commanders carried out lengthy reconnaissance missions in which they studied German terrain. Demolition specialists studied enemy minefields instead of laying their own.
The Red Army had maps of Germany, Romania, and Berlin instead of maps of their own territory. Every Russian soldier had German phrasebooks with phrases like “where are party leaders hiding” and “where is drinkable water”.
When Zhukov reported that the Germans were invading, Stalin, Molotov, and Beria absolutely refused to believe it. If they did not believe this, then for what were they preparing themselves?
Through the pact of 1939, the USSR established a common border with Germany. This is only done when an attack is being planned.
There's more but that's enough. Thanks to EC for confirming.
--Ron Cogan
If all this baloney is so, why didn't poor misunderstood Herr Hitler - freedom's greatest defender, apparently - make peace with the British and (latterly) Americans and march triumphantly against Ming the Merciless and his evil Red hordes? Instead he conquers France, bombs the s*** out of Britain, and declares war on the world's largest and most powerful democracy. Net result: Uncle Joe Stalin and his pals The Allies 1 - Hitler and his bunker boys 0.
Hitler...there was a painter! He could paint an entire apartment in ONE afternoon! TWO coats!! Mel Brooks, The Producers
I agree that Hitler is misunderstood. He was like a mad dog unleashed by Stalin to wreak havoc in Europe. Seeing himself about to be terminated, he turned on his former patron. The greatest enemy of the west could not have been a mad dog, but the mastermind who set him loose. Hitler did nothing in Europe that Stalin would not have done worse.
In June 1940 the Soviet Union occupied Bessarabia, a piece of Germany's ally Romania. Hitler saw that if the Soviet armies moved just a few more miles into Romania, they would take control of Germany's only supply of oil and the blitzkrieg would stop for lack of fuel. This was his first hint of the Soviet threat. Could he possibly make peace with the west now? After conquering Norway, Holland, Denmark, and France?
All he could do at this point is invade the Soviet Union. Due to it being right on the border and completely unprepared for defense, the Red Army's First Strategic Echelon was destroyed quickly. Then Hitler encountered the Second Echelon, whose existence he did not predict. He destroyed 85% of Soviet war-making capability. Since he underestimated the size of the Red Army, I assume that he hoped to eliminate 100% and still have enough strenght to invade England. Why he supported Japan in its futile quest against the superpower America I don't know.
--Ron Cogan
In June 1940 the Soviet Union occupied Bessarabia, a piece of Germany's ally Romania. Hitler saw that if the Soviet armies moved just a few more miles into Romania, they would take control of Germany's only supply of oil and the blitzkrieg would stop for lack of fuel. This was his first hint of the Soviet threat. Could he possibly make peace with the west now? After conquering Norway, Holland, Denmark, and France?
All he could do at this point is invade the Soviet Union. Due to it being right on the border and completely unprepared for defense, the Red Army's First Strategic Echelon was destroyed quickly. Then Hitler encountered the Second Echelon, whose existence he did not predict. He destroyed 85% of Soviet war-making capability. Since he underestimated the size of the Red Army, I assume that he hoped to eliminate 100% and still have enough strenght to invade England. Why he supported Japan in its futile quest against the superpower America I don't know.
--Ron Cogan
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thecontemplator
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- Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 11:47 am
Reply to CPT.
Your claim that Stalin supported Hitler is nonsense. In 1932 when Hitler ran against Hidenburg it was a close race. So close that a second election was held where Hindenburg won because all the communists switched their votes to him. Hitler despaired and the party threatened to break up. Hitler only managed to get to power through a backdoor deal made with Papen. No communists involved. During the next few years Hitler for all purposes broke off relations with Russia and there was very little, if any, contact. Stalin during this time was concentrating on increasing his power and rebuilding Soviet industry. When Hitler began to assert Germany's new found influence Stalin made a treaty with France to contain Germany. The treaty said that should Germany move into Czechoslovakia and France declared war then Russia would follow suit. In 1938 during the Munich crisis France abandoned the Czechs and the treaty came to nothing. Stalin feeling that Russia was isolated and seeing Germany's growing power tentatively approached Hitler with economic deals but Hitler wouldn't listen. At this point Stalin was scared of an alliance between Germany and the west, that is that the capitalist powers would gang up on Russia. Although Hitler talked endlessly about such an alliance his real goal was to isolate Russia so he could turn west and conquer France then Russia. Hitler thought this strategy could work because he believed Russia to be weak and there was also Poland and Romania between them. So Hitler grabbed the rest of Czechoslovakia and this brought down on him the anger of the western powers. While he was getting to ready to take Czechoslovakia Hitler hand wanted to increase his influence on Poland and so he had demanded the return of Danzig. The Poles stubbornly refused and after Hitler's succesful coup against the Czechs were rewarded when the west gave them guarantees against Germany. Hitler now thought he should attack Poland as they would attack Germany when she turned west. Knowing the Russians had interests in Poland Hitler finally decided he should improve his relation with them as he feared they might assist Poland. While was trying to woo Stalin the west was doing the same however because of Chamberlain's mistrust of Russia these efforts were halfhearted. Stalin became convinced that the west was only was using him to divert Germany to Russia. Wanting to avoid war and seeing a chance to exploit the discord between Germany and the west Stalin signed the pact with Hitler. Each dictator thought they had outwitted the other. Hitler said that with Russia neutral the would stay isolated and he free to take Poland then turn west. Stalin was hoping the pact would convince Hitler to invade Poland which he hoped would embroil Germany in war with the west. At the beginning Stalin had won. Hitler had wanted the west eventually but so soon so Germany was unprepared for a major war. Stalin calculated that Germany would get bogged down in the west becoming weak and ripe for communist influence. In the summer of 1940 Stalin was alarmed at Germany's victories so he began to take whatever territory he could. Hitler in the meantime felt that he should attack Russia in spite of the war with England. To Hitler Russia was weak and Germany strong and he didn't want to conquer England anyway because of his belief that their empire helped the white race. Stalin hoped he could get Hitler to keep fighting Britain while futher built up his military. Stalin was completly fooled by the German disinformation campaign and was caught unawares when Hitler attacked. Stalin's plan to weaken the west leaving Russia as the laughing third party failed and he was forced to enter the war. Stalin never helped Hitler and had at first feared he would incite the western world against him. That this never happened was due to the rivalvry between Germany and the west. France would never let Germany attack Russia for fear if she won she would be too strong likewise Hitler knowing that wanted to attack France as soon as possible so she didn't get him while his forces were in the east. As far as America is concerned Roosevelt wanted to enter the war to increase US power. Hitler helped Japan because he wanto use her to contain the US. Btw Hitler believed that after Germany had conquered Europe she would some day fight against Japan and the US but those wars were to happen in the distant future, not in his lifetime.I agree that Hitler is misunderstood. He was like a mad dog unleashed by Stalin to wreak havoc in Europe. Seeing himself about to be terminated, he turned on his former patron. The greatest enemy of the west could not have been a mad dog, but the mastermind who set him loose. Hitler did nothing in Europe that Stalin would not have done worse.
In June 1940 the Soviet Union occupied Bessarabia, a piece of Germany's ally Romania. Hitler saw that if the Soviet armies moved just a few more miles into Romania, they would take control of Germany's only supply of oil and the blitzkrieg would stop for lack of fuel. This was his first hint of the Soviet threat. Could he possibly make peace with the west now? After conquering Norway, Holland, Denmark, and France?
All he could do at this point is invade the Soviet Union. Due to it being right on the border and completely unprepared for defense, the Red Army's First Strategic Echelon was destroyed quickly. Then Hitler encountered the Second Echelon, whose existence he did not predict. He destroyed 85% of Soviet war-making capability. Since he underestimated the size of the Red Army, I assume that he hoped to eliminate 100% and still have enough strenght to invade England. Why he supported Japan in its futile quest against the superpower America I don't know.
You're right in that "Stalin was hoping the pact would convince Hitler to invade Poland which he hoped would embroil Germany in war with the west." and "Stalin calculated that Germany would get bogged down in the west becoming weak and ripe for communist influence."
Since Lenin's time the communists were talking of the necessity of another world war to bring revolution to Europe. But they were wrong by trying to start it. Stalin understood that first he must "embroil Germany in war with the west" and then strike.
In 1927, Stalin declared that the Second World War is inevitable, as is the Soviet Union’s entrance into that war. “We will enter, but we will enter last, to throw in our weight and tip the scale” (Essays, Vol. 7 p.14).
In the end of 1932, Hitler's party had 11.8 million votes, the Social-Democrats had 8.1, and the communists had 5.8. “The German Communist Party had been ordered, against its will, to direct its main force against not the Nazis, but the Socialist-bourgeois coalition Governments, to the degree of the Prussian referendum of 1931 and the transport strike of 1932, in which Nazis and Communists actively cooperated against the moderates. When such tactics resulted in the victory of Hitler, the crushing of the German Communist party was represented as a victory [in the USSR].” (Robert Conquest, The Great Terror, p.195). Almost nothing is written anywhere else about Hitler's sudden rise to power after bankruptcy and near defeat. Hitler biographies skip over it. One book says, “In this book it is impossible, nor is it necessary, to list all the ups and downs of the struggle for the chancellor chair in 1932-1933…” However, in the Central Committee of the Soviet Union, grand speeches were at this time being made as to how "direct assistance must be given to our German comrades to enable them to seize power" - Boris Bazhanov. In 1927 Stalin already foresaw that the Nazis would come to power and he considered that this would be a positive event for him. (Suvorov, Icebreaker, p. 11). I must rewrite Trotsky’s 1936 quote: “Without Stalin there would have been no Hitler, there would have been no Gestapo!”
Even ignoring how Hitler came to power, there still remains the undisputable fact that the Soviet Union organized an immense army designed for offense that would reach maximum strenght July 1941. Don't be so reluctant to agree. It's not as if Stalin was a good man. It is reasonable to suppose that he is guilty of such crimes, and the facts prove that.
--Ron Cogan
Since Lenin's time the communists were talking of the necessity of another world war to bring revolution to Europe. But they were wrong by trying to start it. Stalin understood that first he must "embroil Germany in war with the west" and then strike.
In 1927, Stalin declared that the Second World War is inevitable, as is the Soviet Union’s entrance into that war. “We will enter, but we will enter last, to throw in our weight and tip the scale” (Essays, Vol. 7 p.14).
In the end of 1932, Hitler's party had 11.8 million votes, the Social-Democrats had 8.1, and the communists had 5.8. “The German Communist Party had been ordered, against its will, to direct its main force against not the Nazis, but the Socialist-bourgeois coalition Governments, to the degree of the Prussian referendum of 1931 and the transport strike of 1932, in which Nazis and Communists actively cooperated against the moderates. When such tactics resulted in the victory of Hitler, the crushing of the German Communist party was represented as a victory [in the USSR].” (Robert Conquest, The Great Terror, p.195). Almost nothing is written anywhere else about Hitler's sudden rise to power after bankruptcy and near defeat. Hitler biographies skip over it. One book says, “In this book it is impossible, nor is it necessary, to list all the ups and downs of the struggle for the chancellor chair in 1932-1933…” However, in the Central Committee of the Soviet Union, grand speeches were at this time being made as to how "direct assistance must be given to our German comrades to enable them to seize power" - Boris Bazhanov. In 1927 Stalin already foresaw that the Nazis would come to power and he considered that this would be a positive event for him. (Suvorov, Icebreaker, p. 11). I must rewrite Trotsky’s 1936 quote: “Without Stalin there would have been no Hitler, there would have been no Gestapo!”
Even ignoring how Hitler came to power, there still remains the undisputable fact that the Soviet Union organized an immense army designed for offense that would reach maximum strenght July 1941. Don't be so reluctant to agree. It's not as if Stalin was a good man. It is reasonable to suppose that he is guilty of such crimes, and the facts prove that.
--Ron Cogan
-
thecontemplator
- New Member
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 11:47 am
Reply.
I agree that Stalin wanted to to start a war in the west and might possibly have attacked Germany, though not in 1941. But these claims that Stalin somehow helped Hitler into power don't seem realistic to me. How could Stalin in 1927 forsee that Hitler would eventually come to power? By 1928 the Nazis were almost bankrupt from having spent all their money on parades. It wasn't until the fall of 1929, when the depression happened, that Hitler's turn around came. What happened was this. The communists sought to take advantage of the economic hardship and so there were fears of a communist revoloution. Hitler's party was the most outspoken on communism and big buisinesses, fearing what would happen to them should communism succeed began to support Hitler. By 1931 the Weimar Republic became polarized between the Nazis and communists. In the meantime a deadlock in the reichstag on how to solve the problems had developed. Hindenburg then used his emergency powers to dissolve the reichstag. Meanwhile the Nazis managed to win key positions in the reichstag and this lead Hitler ask for the chancellorship. Hindenburg because of his distrust of Hitler refused. The army also disliked Hitler because of the SA. Hitler tried to get around this by running for president but failed in the end BECAUSE of the communists backing Hindenburg. So Hitler decided to try again for the chancellorship. Papen who was now chancellor was open the idea of a deal but wanted to have the main share of power. Hitler refused and made threats against the government. In the meantime Papen had been ruling Germany through constitunol decree. In the fall the reichstag met again. If the reichstag made a vote of no confidence against Papen he would be forced to step down. Papen received a decree from Hidenburg allowing him to dissolve thr reichstag for a few more months. As Papen ran into the room with the order, Goering saw him and called for the vote of no confidence before he could speak. The result was the reichstag was dissovled as Hindenburg ordred but Papen had to step down as chancellor in late November. Hindenburg now had trouble deciding who should be chancellor next. A group of industrial leaders sent Hindenburg a letter asking Hitler to be made chancellor but Hindenburg chose general Schleicher instead. In the winter the reishstag election and the nazis lost some votes. Hitler talked of committing suicide and the party threatened to break up. It was this point that Papen entered the scene again. Papen had an axe to grind with Schleicher and wanted to return to power. Papen was convinced the Nazis had to be brought into the government to solve the deadlock in the reichstag. Hitler was now open to the idea of a coalition government and talked to Papen in early January. Hugenburg, leader of the Nationalist party, was pursuaded to talk with Hitler and a tentaive deal was worked out. Papen then used his influence on Hindenburg to get him to accept Hitler as chancellor. Schleicher in the meantime had been causing trouble by threatining to give peoples estates away and so Hindenburg no longer liked him. Hindenburg finaally accepted the idea of a Hitler government as long at certain checks against Hitler were in place. Hitler accepted these and so it was only a matter of time before Schleicher was ousted. On January 28 Hindenburg fired Schleicher and 2 days later gave Hitler the chancellorship. The deal that Hitler had to become chancellor seemed to at first glance limit his power. Papen was vice chancellor and his cabinet was dominated by conservatives. But Hitler through various deceptions broke the restraints and become dictator. So where is the role or the communists in all this? If Stalin wanted Hitler in power why didn't have the German communists vote for Hitler? Why did they constantly block him and force him to come to powwer through a deal with Papen and Hugenburg. Your claim that Stalin helped Hitler come to power just doesen't bear out.
Assuming everything you write is accurate, there is nothing to dispute except one thing.
The Red Army could not stand idle in its mobilized state on the western frontier past summer 1941.
1. It would run out of food in a short time.
2. The ammunition and artillery, which was stored in the open, had to be used before the autumn rains.
3. The thousands of military gliders, stored without hangers, had to be used before the rain and especially before the winter snow.
4. Half the army did not have living quarters for the autumn and winter.
It would take 6 months to demobilize, which meant if the army was not to be used summer 1941 it would have to start to be sent home before the summer. This was not done. Instead, it kept increasing its power. Maximum strenght was to be reached July 10, 1941 but usually invasions are started a few days before maximum strenght so that incoming trains can deliever the last weapons straight into the fighting.
--Ron Cogan
The Red Army could not stand idle in its mobilized state on the western frontier past summer 1941.
1. It would run out of food in a short time.
2. The ammunition and artillery, which was stored in the open, had to be used before the autumn rains.
3. The thousands of military gliders, stored without hangers, had to be used before the rain and especially before the winter snow.
4. Half the army did not have living quarters for the autumn and winter.
It would take 6 months to demobilize, which meant if the army was not to be used summer 1941 it would have to start to be sent home before the summer. This was not done. Instead, it kept increasing its power. Maximum strenght was to be reached July 10, 1941 but usually invasions are started a few days before maximum strenght so that incoming trains can deliever the last weapons straight into the fighting.
--Ron Cogan
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thecontemplator
- New Member
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 11:47 am
Reply to CPT.
There was a long discussion on this in the axis history forum where I was posting as John2. Although the thread is locked you might find it interesting. Here is the link:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=12353.
We concluded that Stalin probably had intentions to invade but not in 1941 because he had not finished building up his military. Hitler had always planned to invade eventually because wanted to conquer living space and defeat communism. After the victory over France was anxious to turn against Russia since he could. Hitler also became convinced that this would help him in his war with Britain. As long as the Soviet Union posed a potential threat Hitler had to keep large forces at his border. This would prevent him from devoting his resources to building up a large navy and airforce - essential to invade Britain and possibly fight the US who was threatining to enter the war. Finally Hitler knew Stalin was talking to the British. Hitler did not fear a British - Soviet alliance. He believed that Stalin was flirting with the British to give them hope so they would continue the war. There was also the US who spoke openly against Hitler. Stalin's plan was to stay out of the war as long as possible until the US entered it. While Germany fought a long war of attrition with Britain and the US Stalin would continue building up his power and making Germany more dpendant on him for resources. When Germany was weakened is when Stalin planned to attack. This is line with the communist ideology. Lenin was supposed to have said there would be 3 world wars. The first had already passed, ww 1, where the communism was established. The second would be fought by the capitalist powers weakening each other and paving the way for the spread of communism. The third would be where the dying capitalist powers were finally destroyed by communism. Lenin said they would have to keep the second war so they could profit by it. Why would Stalin invade Germany when she was at her strongest after just defeating France? Stalin's whole strategy was to WEAKEN Germany to the point where she could be easily defeated. And Germany was to be used to weaken the capitalist powers. Stalin thus sought to keep Germany engaged in the west in the hopes she would have to fight the US as well. Hitler recognized the dangers Germany faced which is he wanted to take the offensive. By launching a surprise attack on Stalin he would foil Stalin's plans while accomplishing his vision of a German dominated Europe. After the Soviet Union was gone Japan would be free to go against the US. Meanwhile Germany would have eliminated her last major rival on the continent and could demoblize her army. She could devote all her resouces into building a strong navy and airforce that would blockade Britain and force her to surrender. Thus Germany would win the war and dominate Europe. Hitler believed by acting now he could the Soviets while they were weak and Germany still strong. Stalin did not feel he was ready for war and kept wanting to sign another pact to keep Hitler focused on the west. Hitler didn't take the bait and attacked. That's how the war in the east started.
Btw here are a few quotes for you.
From Lenin:
From Hitler:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=12353.
We concluded that Stalin probably had intentions to invade but not in 1941 because he had not finished building up his military. Hitler had always planned to invade eventually because wanted to conquer living space and defeat communism. After the victory over France was anxious to turn against Russia since he could. Hitler also became convinced that this would help him in his war with Britain. As long as the Soviet Union posed a potential threat Hitler had to keep large forces at his border. This would prevent him from devoting his resources to building up a large navy and airforce - essential to invade Britain and possibly fight the US who was threatining to enter the war. Finally Hitler knew Stalin was talking to the British. Hitler did not fear a British - Soviet alliance. He believed that Stalin was flirting with the British to give them hope so they would continue the war. There was also the US who spoke openly against Hitler. Stalin's plan was to stay out of the war as long as possible until the US entered it. While Germany fought a long war of attrition with Britain and the US Stalin would continue building up his power and making Germany more dpendant on him for resources. When Germany was weakened is when Stalin planned to attack. This is line with the communist ideology. Lenin was supposed to have said there would be 3 world wars. The first had already passed, ww 1, where the communism was established. The second would be fought by the capitalist powers weakening each other and paving the way for the spread of communism. The third would be where the dying capitalist powers were finally destroyed by communism. Lenin said they would have to keep the second war so they could profit by it. Why would Stalin invade Germany when she was at her strongest after just defeating France? Stalin's whole strategy was to WEAKEN Germany to the point where she could be easily defeated. And Germany was to be used to weaken the capitalist powers. Stalin thus sought to keep Germany engaged in the west in the hopes she would have to fight the US as well. Hitler recognized the dangers Germany faced which is he wanted to take the offensive. By launching a surprise attack on Stalin he would foil Stalin's plans while accomplishing his vision of a German dominated Europe. After the Soviet Union was gone Japan would be free to go against the US. Meanwhile Germany would have eliminated her last major rival on the continent and could demoblize her army. She could devote all her resouces into building a strong navy and airforce that would blockade Britain and force her to surrender. Thus Germany would win the war and dominate Europe. Hitler believed by acting now he could the Soviets while they were weak and Germany still strong. Stalin did not feel he was ready for war and kept wanting to sign another pact to keep Hitler focused on the west. Hitler didn't take the bait and attacked. That's how the war in the east started.
Btw here are a few quotes for you.
From Lenin:
So there were to be three world wars.”I speak of at least two future world wars”, Lenin replies. “If we manage to save the socialist revolution from the impending intervention of the capitalist powers, then only through promises, through the granting of concessions, profits, business opportunities, cessions of territory and so on. We will then have about 15 - 20 years time before the next crisis of the capitalist world brings about the next world war. Then all will depend on our being able to stay out of it as long as possible, until the imperialists have sufficiently weakened each other. We will get our extorted concessions back cheaply, recover our lost provinces and watch how the west destroys its cities and production sites; we will see unprecedented masses of refugees and if possible cause them ourselves, because - this you know, Leo Davidovich - only a man uprooted and deprived of his possessions will be ripe for the world revolution. Getting him to that state is something that, after the law of the capitalist system, the west will take care of itself.” “Thus you expect the world revolution only after this second world war?” asks Trotsky, whose dream it is to see the world revolution already at the end of the present war. “If we make it through this second world war unharmed”, Lenin persistently continues, “we will have to be even more alert. For now the dying world of the imperialists will have understood that it is doomed to vanish unless the socialist state dies first. They will therefore prepare the third world war. After this war there will be either no more soviets or no more capitalists.”
From Hitler:
So Hitler planned to attack the Soviet Union in July.England’s hope is Russia and America. If hope on Russia vanishes, America will vanish as well, because the removal of Russia will lead to an enormous strengthening of Japan’s position in the Far East. Russia is the East Asian dagger of England and America against Japan. Here a wind unpleasant for England is blowing. The Japanese have their program like Russia, which is to be finished before the end of the war. The Russian victory film about a Russian war! Russia is the factor that England is most strongly counting on. Something has happened in London! The English were already completely down. Now they are back on their feet. Intercepted conversations. Russia unpleasantly disturbed by the swift development in Western Europe. Russia needs only to hint to England that she does not wish to see Germany too strong and the English, like a drowning man, will regain hope that the situation in six to eight months will have completely changed. But if Russia is smashed, Britain’s last hope will be shattered. Then Germany will be master of Europe and the Balkans.
Decision: In the course of this confrontation Russia must be finished off. Spring of 41. The faster Russia is beaten apart, the better.[my emphasis] The operation only makes sense if we severely beat the state apart in one blow. A certain gain of territory is not sufficient. Standing still in the winter is not recommendable. Thus it is better to wait, but there is the firm decision to finish off Russia. This is necessary also due to the situation in the Baltic. A second huge power on the Baltic is of no use: May 1941. Five months’ time for carrying out. Preferably still in this year, but this is not possible if the operation is to be carried out uniformly.
Goal: Destruction of the Russia’s capacity to exist. To be divided into:
3. Thrust toward Kiev, advance along the Dnjepr. Air force destroys river crossings. Odessa.
4. Thrust through the periphery states in the direction of Moscow.
Finally joining forces from North and South. Later partial operation against the Baku oil region. To what extent Finland and Turkey are to be interested will be seen. Later: Ukraine, Belorussia, Baltic States for us. Finland up to the White Sea.
7 divisions Norway (make self-sufficient!)
50 divisions France
3 divisions Holland, Belgium
__________________
60 divisions
120 divisions for the East
______________
180 divisions
The more units we come with, the better. We have 120 plus 20 leave divisions. Constitution by pulling one battalion out of each division. After a few months again a battalion will be pulled out in three sections from 1/3 of divisions.
Concealment: Spain, North Africa, England. [translator’s note: unclear what this means. Maybe reference to feigning that new divisions will be used in Spain, North Africa and for attack on England] Constitution of new units in areas air-protected areas.
Constitution of new units: In the eastern area 40 divisions of combat-experienced troops. Exposition about intended regulation for the Balkans: Intended regulation Hungary/Rumania. Then guarantee to Rumania