Royal Marines

Freiritter · Post by **Freiritter** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:27 am

Hello. I'm curious about the British Royal Marines. Did they have an amphibious assault role similar to that of the U.S. Marine Corps? If so, were there any Royal Marine amphibious assault operations? ( Other than the Commandos. )

nigelfe · Post by **nigelfe** » Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:17 pm

The short answer is 'No'. They never developed doctrine or equipment for amphibious operations until after WW2, when it was clear that their traditional roles would not last much longer. An RM division was planned/formed at the beginning of WW2 but not proceeded with.

Freiritter · Post by **Freiritter** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:57 am

Hi, Wow, I'd have thought that with the size and breadth of the Empire, the RM would've had some scheme to hold forward fleet bases or some idea to retake lost bases from an enemy. Or did the government rely on the Royal Army and the Commonwealth troops to hold the line in the Colonies?

GPR44 · Post by **GPR44** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 7:41 am

Freiritter,

When you say other than Commandos, do you mean Army or RM?

Freiritter · Post by **Freiritter** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 7:48 am

It is my understanding that both the RM and Royal Army fielded Commando units. I understand that he Commandos were sea based raiders that hit the coast, smashed at headed out for sea again. My question regards if the RM conducted amphib assault operations like the USMC in the Pacific, I hope that clarifies things, sorry for the confusion.

GPR44 · Post by **GPR44** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:25 am

The RM did not take part in amphibious raids/assaults but the reconstituted RM Division did.

To explain. The RM Division (organised in three Brigades) had originally been set up with the intention of its members taking part in amphibious assaults. None of this ever happened.

The Dieppe debacle included a RM Commando, made up of volunteers. Another volunteer Commando was formed post-Dieppe. These soon became 40 and 41 RM Commando.

In 1943, the Division was broken up along with the two Mobile Naval Base Defence Organisation units. Personnel were reallocated to Commandos and landing craft. At this time, over half of the RM strength had seen little action. It was therefore a case of adapt or see an end to the Corps.

The RM Division's seven Battalions were formed into RM Commando units.

40 and 41 RM Commando saw sterling service in the Sicily Landing and Italian invasion. Five further RM Commandos landed in Normandy on D-Day and fought through Europe. Of note is 46 RM Commando which was given the honour of leading the crossing of the Rhine on March 23 1945.

Hope this helps.

nigelfe · Post by **nigelfe** » Sat Jan 31, 2004 8:41 pm

Before WW2 the main and traditional role of the RM was afloat on ships, on capital ships they manned some gun turrets. They also provided ships' landing parties and their most traditional role of a sentry outside the wardroom.

The defence of colonies was a matter for the Army or locally recruited forces, basically it was an internal security matter - who on earth was going to seize a British colony, there was no nation with sufficient impertinance and in any case seaborne defence was a matter for the RN.

During WW2 RM also provided some LAA, SL and HAA regiments (including AA brigades in Normandy (5th) and India (1st)) and the armoured support regiments that landed on DDay. RM infantry also had responsibility for the security of key buildings in London.

RM and Army commandos were effectively interchangeable, they were organised into mixed brigades, initially called 'Special Service' (an unfortunate acronym) which was changed to 'Commando' in late 1944. Although the commandos had started as army by mid 1944 there were 7 army and 9 RM, with 4 SS Bde being entirely RM.

Liam · Post by **Liam** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 9:02 am

The Royal Marines of course have a long history of maritime assault from Gibraltar to the Crimea to Gallilpolli and Zeebruge in WWI. However, the US Marines and their Japanese counterparts were the only sea-soldiers with the capabilities for large-scale beach assaults in the early part of WWII. The Royal Marines (non-Commando) did, however, get involved in not-terribly successful missions in the early war years like the one to raid Dakar (starring the unlikely figure of Marine officer Evelyn Waugh!).

Freiritter · Post by **Freiritter** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 5:17 pm

Thank you all for your posts. I've heard that in WWI that a Belgian port was to be occupied by a RM battalion early on, during the initial German sweep into Belgium, thence France. I'm sorry if I was off-topic. Also, a raid on Dakar? Was that by a ship's detachment or another formation? Another question: the St. Nazaire raid in 1941 or 1942, was that a RM operation or was that Army?

Liam · Post by **Liam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 10:29 am

Yes it was intended for the British to secure Belgian ports in 1914 to supply the BEF but, of course, the Germans had other ideas. Three Marine Battalions landed at Ostend but were unable to affect the inexorable German advance, so ended up retreating along with all the other British units. As for Dakar there was at least two RM infantry battalions involved along with Free French forces. And finally St. Nazaire was a 'combined operations' mission with Naval and Army commando units interacting.

Freiritter · Post by **Freiritter** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:48 pm

Thanks, Liam. Were the RM battalions ( WWI ) ad hoc formations or were they pre-existing units? An aside, how large was a RM ship's detachment?

sid guttridge · Post by **sid guttridge** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 7:44 am

Hi Guys,

Wasn't there a Royal Marine Light Infantry Regiment during the Victorian period that was not attached to ships? What was its role? Was it the force landed in Belgium in 1914?

I believe it was part of the Royal Naval Division. Where did the rest of this large formation come from?

Cheers,

Sid

Reb · Post by **Reb** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 8:02 pm

I happened to be present during a comical exchange between some guys who on one hand had served in the Royal Marines and the other in the US Marines. The debate got sort of heated as to which was better.

I had to give it to the Brits in this case when they claimed that 'RM' stood for 'Real Marines.' Even the Americans laughed at that one.

reb

nigelfe · Post by **nigelfe** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 2:33 am

The RN Division was, overwhelmingly, comprised of sailors not marines. The navy had plenty of spare guy hanging around, not least their reservists.

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