German 5th Column – 1939
Before the WWII, Germany started psychological war against Poland. Adolf Hitler had two main aims:
1] To prepare Germans for future war;
2] To find good reasons to start the war – of course there can be only Polish guilt (like “restrictions” according to Germans living in Poland).
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The German organizations in Poland:
- Deutsche Vereinigung (Poznan Pomerania),
- Deutscher Volksbund (Silesia),
- Deutscher Volksverband (Lodz aria)
- and in all Poland - Jungdeutsche Partei,
Those organizations are directly responsible (in September and October 1939) for murders of 40 000 Poles (treason attacks against Polish soldiers in 1939, in many places; preparing lists of Poles to murder - intelligentsia, clergy, and former insurgents especially in Silesia and Wielkopolska; and so-on…).
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There were also some secret organizations. After 1933 many members of German minority in Poland were enlisted for future sabotage actions. They committed a lot of terrorist actions against Polish authorities and Poles. Any action against those terrorist attacks was used by German propaganda as a prove of Polish “oppressions”.
Those actions were the strongest in Gdansk and across borders of Pomerania and Upper Silesia. For example in Gdansk were very active some “fighting squads” and there were some other “minor” measures like for example written information in public places (restaurants, pubs etc.): “No entry for dogs and poles”, and so-on.
On May 20, 1939 there was a terrorist attack on Polish custom post in Kalthoff. On June 18, 1939 in Gdansk Dr. Goebbels declared that “German Danzig will return to Germany, very soon”. In August Germans tried to prevent the duty of Polish custom officers at the Eastern Prussia border. In summer 1939 many terrorist bands attacked Polish border posts, railway stations and some factories alongside the border (Rybnik, Katowice, Koscierzyna, Mlawa). In Tarnow in August 1939 such a band committed a bomb attack in railway station – 18 innocent people died.
On August 26, 1939 at dawn, German military squad (!) crossed the Polish border from Slovakia and attacked railway station in Mosty and the tunnel of Jablonkowska Pass.
Moreover – there were some terrorists attacks against Germans! There were bomb attacks even against German schools, there were burnt mansions of Germans etc. – of course the Poles were responsible…
And finally on August 31, 1939 a squad of SS (and criminal prisons) in Polish uniforms attacked the radio-station in Gliwice and called for fights against Germans.
Adolf Hitler pointed that “attack” and via radio on August 31, 1939, at midnight declared an ultimatum.
Next day was the first day of the bloodiest war ever – the biggest shame for mankind forever!
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http://www.drugawojnaswiatowa.org/music/polen.mp3
German 5th Column – 1939
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Somosierra
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German 5th Column – 1939
APOCALYPSIS IOANNIS 21, 8:
--
Timidis autem et incredulis et exsecratis et homicidis et fornicatoribus et veneficis et idololatris et omnibus mendacibus, pars illorum erit in stagno ardenti igne et sulphure, quod est mors secunda.
--
Timidis autem et incredulis et exsecratis et homicidis et fornicatoribus et veneficis et idololatris et omnibus mendacibus, pars illorum erit in stagno ardenti igne et sulphure, quod est mors secunda.
German 5th columnists
why is it that some people refuse to let things rest? Its no secret that germany was responsible for horrific war crimes then again so were the allies and so was russia.
The use of covert warfare against selected targets and indeed persons has always been an accepted part of pre-emptive operations I don't know if the german minority in poland prior to the invasion was indeed repressed I could'nt say I do that after the invasion the poles lived through a hell on earth as did the rest of occupied europe.
I am Northern Irish, I am used to bombings and shootings on an almost daily scale I can't claim that these were justified or that being a member of a minority is a justifiable reason for murder. I can however state that you cannot blame a nation for the evils visited on another it is the individuals who are accountable-hence the nuremburg trials!.
also the red army murdered poles also lets us not forget this germany invaded poland with the help of the soviets thereby cutting her in two.
As far as secret organizations go the allies has these too remeber the soe?
they too engaged in covert warfare against german soldiers and selected targets for three years prior to the normandy landings.
the poles too had a resistance network there was the polish uprising in 1944 and murders of german soldiers and civilians even prior to this.
I guess my point to all of this somosierra is that although I can understand your anger at the activities germany engaged in after and prior to the invasion of poland, it was a long time ago and somethings although they should never be forgotten should be looked at eqaully and with an open mind-peace
Vergeissmeinicht
The use of covert warfare against selected targets and indeed persons has always been an accepted part of pre-emptive operations I don't know if the german minority in poland prior to the invasion was indeed repressed I could'nt say I do that after the invasion the poles lived through a hell on earth as did the rest of occupied europe.
I am Northern Irish, I am used to bombings and shootings on an almost daily scale I can't claim that these were justified or that being a member of a minority is a justifiable reason for murder. I can however state that you cannot blame a nation for the evils visited on another it is the individuals who are accountable-hence the nuremburg trials!.
also the red army murdered poles also lets us not forget this germany invaded poland with the help of the soviets thereby cutting her in two.
As far as secret organizations go the allies has these too remeber the soe?
they too engaged in covert warfare against german soldiers and selected targets for three years prior to the normandy landings.
the poles too had a resistance network there was the polish uprising in 1944 and murders of german soldiers and civilians even prior to this.
I guess my point to all of this somosierra is that although I can understand your anger at the activities germany engaged in after and prior to the invasion of poland, it was a long time ago and somethings although they should never be forgotten should be looked at eqaully and with an open mind-peace
Vergeissmeinicht
Will
"Where The German Soldier Sets Foot, There He Remains"
Adolf Hitler-27 September 1942
"Where The German Soldier Sets Foot, There He Remains"
Adolf Hitler-27 September 1942
-
Somosierra
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- Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:39 pm
- Location: POLAND - The Land of Virtue and Valor: "Peior est bello timor ipse belli!"
I have no anger and I do not blame all people but "Hist
I have no anger and I do not blame all people but "Historia est magistra vitae!".
Here you are some very good infos (there are some minor mistakes).
--
http://2ndww.tripod.com/Poland/vcolumn.htm
The term "fifth column" was coined during the Spanish civil war (1936-1939). General Francisco Franco in one of his comments on the plans to take Madrid, said, that the city would be attacked from outside by four columns of his troops, while his secret supporters would constitute a "fifth column", which would strike from inside. Since then the expression "fifth column" describes activities of various spies, saboteurs and terrorists, who support aggressors in the rear of attacked countries. It is characteristic to the "fifth column" to apply falsehood and provocation, and to recruit traitors and renegades among the military and civilians of the attacked countries. Very often the role of the "fifth column" play ethnic minorities.
In 1939 the "fifth column" in Poland was comprised of German and Ukrainian minorities. Various were ways to provide them with weapon, ammunition and supplies. Sometimes they travelled across the Polish border in the car of a German consul having granted diplomatic immunity. Sometimes a crate would fall out of a transit train running through the "Polish corridor" and, lifted by mysterious hands, would disappear in secret storages. In the forests, in the basements of German possessions, in the vaults of German banks or in the crypts of Uniate churches, young men under supervision of experienced German NCO's were learning the "art" of treacherous attack and shooting at the back from behind the corner. They were activated yet before the hitlerite Wehrmacht began the open aggression. Only in August 1939 Polish military and police had registered many acts of diversion, mostly against the means of communication, and armed assaults perpetrated by the bands from such organizations like Kampf und Sabotageorganisation, Freikorps Ebbinghaus and Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN). By the night 1 September, it means several hours before the aggression, their activities acquired forms of a regular attack.
Its main task was to capture the industrial centre in the vicinity of Katowice intact and to hold it until the arrival of German troops. This operation brought only temporary success. As soon as the effects of surprise were gone, the Poles went to counter-attack. They dislodged the Germans from coalmines Karol and Jurand after a long and eager fight. The main force of the Polish counter-attack constituted former Silesian insurgents, organized in veteran units. With aid hastened veterans from Chropaczow and Lipiny, and a regular army unit from Godula. The bands were completely defeated. A complete fiasco also bore repeated bands' attacks on Brzeziny Slaskie. On 1 September they managed to seize the coal-mine Orzeł Biały, but soon they were dislodged by the counter-attack of Captain Bomba's company from the Entrenched Camp Katowice and a veteran unit. On 2 September took place another attack, but again it was repelled by the veteran company, reinforced by two veteran platoons from Brzozowice-Kamien and Wielka Dabrowka.
A quite serious situation happened in the area of Chorzow, Maciejkowice and Michalkowice where a several hundred strong band from the Freikorps Ebbinghaus by night 31 August to 1 September crossed unnoticed the positions of the Polish defence and attacked them from the rear. The defence of Maciejkowice was made of Lt. Alfons Piecha's company of popular militia and veteran companies of Edmund Ledwoń and Karol Marcinkowski. They held the town until Polish armoured cars, supported by regular units, came with aid and forced assailants to flee. During the fights in Chorzow some 100 Germans with their chief Karol Mania were taken prisoners. Also failed the attack on the coal-mine Michał. The evening situation report for the command of the Army Kraków's of 1 September informed about liquidation of all the German bands; the prisoners were summarily shot. Therefore the Germans failed to take the Upper Silesian industrial region by surprise.
They raised their heads once again on 3 September when the Army Kraków, in order to avoid encirclement, started the withdrawal of its troops from Silesia. In Pszczyna armed bands attacked the 2nd Battalion of the 20th Infantry Regiment from the 6th Infantry Division. As the battalion was marching out of the town, from windows, from backyards, from cemeteries resounded treacherous shots, which disorganized its retreat. In Bielsko-Biala another attack aimed at the headquarter of the 21st Infantry Division and its troops marching through the town, which was practically in the German hands. The Polish retreat took place amidst the chaos of arsons, detonations and intensive shooting. By evening the division's headquarter was almost surrounded and since 22:00 had found itself under permanent machine-gun fire, conducted from the textile works Jankowski some 30-40m away.
But the most dramatic one was undoubtfully the armed rebellion organized by the "fifth column" in Bydgoszcz. The military situation in Pomerania turned against the Poles within very first hours of the campaign. The command of the Army Pomorze had decided to withdraw its troops from Tuchola Forest southward. Since the passages across the Vistula in Chelmno were already destroyed, the only alternative route was through Bydgoszcz. In those circumstances Bydgoszcz gained strategic importance, because its fall into enemy hands could disorganize the northern wing of Polish defence in its most important point. Substantial Polish forces - Pomorska Cavalry Brigade, 9th and 27th Infantry Divisions, and two battalions of popular militia - had to retreat through the city, while it was covered by the 15th Infantry Division. On 3 September about 10:00 they were attacked by the hitlerite squads, reinforced by some bands from the Reich and Free City Danzig. Soldiers and civilians suddenly found themselves under the machine-gun fire conducted from the windows, from the woods, from behind the fences. The toll of the dead and wounded grew. Within few hours saboteurs seized many vital points throughout the city, causing disorganization and chaos among the troops, and panic among the inhabitants. It was not until several hours later that the situation was under control again. Fifty defence nests, all generously equipped with weapons and ammunition, were gradually liquidated in stout fights. All the day 4 September the city was combed out by the troops, while the saboteurs had been hastily court-martialled and summarily executed. However, the overall situation on the front soon forced Polish troops to further retreat. As the Germans occupied Bydgoszcz, they took a bloody revenge for the suppressed rebellion.
A trouble somewhat similar, but to a lesser scale also occurred on Hel peninsula, on the northernmost tip of the country. The region adjacent to the Gulf of Danzig for centuries has been inhabited by indigenous Slavic people, Kashubians. Although in the past they were subjected to germanization, they had managed to preserve their distinct culture and language. In 1920's and 1930's there was some Kashubian nationalist movement in the Free City Danzig, but generally the Kashubians opted for Poland and in September 1939 they unanimously supported the Polish cause. The wartime hardships and nazi propaganda, though, might induce some of them with defeatist feelings. On 19 September, after surrender of Gdynia, some Kashubians demanded that Hel capitulate as well, in order to spare sufferings to the civilian population. A band of armed men, civilians and sailors alike, seized the headquarter of the commander of the Entrenched Camp Hel, Rear-Admiral Włodzimierz Steyer, and demanded an order to surrender. The rebellion was promptly suppressed. Steyer ordered immediate execution of the leaders, but spared others. Providing that Hel had to capitulate sooner or later (actually it took place on 2 October), that was certainly a wise decision, for it left no grounds for mutual Polish-Kashubian hostility. Under the German occupation the Kashubians took part in the resistance movement together with the Poles.
A completely different situation emerged in Poland's most south-eastern region inhabited by the Ukrainians - Galicia. Those territories, conquered by Poland in the 16th and 17th centuries from Russia, for centuries had been the scene of oppression of local inhabitants and their bloody uprisings. In the 18th and 19th centuries Galicia found itself in the Habsburg realm. Seeking a balance for both Polish and Russian influence, the Austrians undertook a long-lasting campaign of ukrainization, which resulted in creation of a nationalist movement based on a groundless theory, that the Ukrainians are the only true Slavic people, distinctively different from both the Russians and the Poles, and constitute a different race, presumably superior and descending from ancient Troy. During the First World War and the civil war in Russia, the Germans, and then the Poles, attempted to create a Ukrainian "fifth column" against the Russians, but did not succeed. On the other hand, the Austro-Hungarian legacy created a substantial dissent and unrest in Galicia. As Ukrainian nationalist activities quickened towards the end of 1920's and in 1930's, the Polish régime resorted to reprisals. Ukrainian language and organizations were banned, and in 1930's the military and police carried out a number of pacification campaigns, which led to many arrests, widespread brutality and intimidation, and destruction of property. In 1930's Polish authorities promoted, sometimes by force, the conversion of the Orthodox to the Roman Catholicism (so-called Union) and seized hundreds of Orthodox churches for closure, destruction, or transfer to the Roman Catholic Church. All that provided a fertile soil for the idea of creation of "independent" Ukraine, which would comprise lands carved out of Russia, Poland, Czechoslovakia and Romania. This goal was pursued by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, created in 1929 in Vienna by Jewhen Konowalec. Authoritarian in structure, conspiratorial in its methods, and influenced by nazi theories, OUN carried out acts of sabotage and assassinations of Polish officials, the most spectacular being the murder of the Polish minister of interior, Bronisław Pieracki. Since 1933, when the nazis seized power in Germany, OUN started to see the alliance with German fascists as the way to achieve its goals, and offered its assistance to the German special services in their undeclared war against Poland.
As the Polish defence, as well as state authorities, collapsed in September 1939 the Ukrainians activated sabotage and diversion against the Polish troops retreating towards the Romanian border, and launched the slaughter of civilian population, first of all the Poles and Jews in Stanislawow, Kolomyja, Trembowla and Buczacz. This action naturally caused a counteraction of the Polish troops, which undertook brutal pacificatory actions. The whole Poland's south-eastern frontier found itself at the threshold of a civil war and only the approach of the Red Army ceased the hostilities. Not for long though. After the outbreak of the Germano-Soviet war the Ukrainians raised their heads again. They openly allied with the Germans in their genocidal policy in occupied territories, and conducted regular war on Polish and Soviet partisans and civilians. They also played a substantial role in extermination of the Jews, especially in Warsaw ghetto. Even after the war they conducted their criminal activities in the USSR, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania. Although the Ukrainian nationalist movement was eventually suppressed in the end of 1940's, it still has supporters and advocates, most notably in the United States and Canada.
Paul Neumann
Here you are some very good infos (there are some minor mistakes).
--
http://2ndww.tripod.com/Poland/vcolumn.htm
The term "fifth column" was coined during the Spanish civil war (1936-1939). General Francisco Franco in one of his comments on the plans to take Madrid, said, that the city would be attacked from outside by four columns of his troops, while his secret supporters would constitute a "fifth column", which would strike from inside. Since then the expression "fifth column" describes activities of various spies, saboteurs and terrorists, who support aggressors in the rear of attacked countries. It is characteristic to the "fifth column" to apply falsehood and provocation, and to recruit traitors and renegades among the military and civilians of the attacked countries. Very often the role of the "fifth column" play ethnic minorities.
In 1939 the "fifth column" in Poland was comprised of German and Ukrainian minorities. Various were ways to provide them with weapon, ammunition and supplies. Sometimes they travelled across the Polish border in the car of a German consul having granted diplomatic immunity. Sometimes a crate would fall out of a transit train running through the "Polish corridor" and, lifted by mysterious hands, would disappear in secret storages. In the forests, in the basements of German possessions, in the vaults of German banks or in the crypts of Uniate churches, young men under supervision of experienced German NCO's were learning the "art" of treacherous attack and shooting at the back from behind the corner. They were activated yet before the hitlerite Wehrmacht began the open aggression. Only in August 1939 Polish military and police had registered many acts of diversion, mostly against the means of communication, and armed assaults perpetrated by the bands from such organizations like Kampf und Sabotageorganisation, Freikorps Ebbinghaus and Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN). By the night 1 September, it means several hours before the aggression, their activities acquired forms of a regular attack.
Its main task was to capture the industrial centre in the vicinity of Katowice intact and to hold it until the arrival of German troops. This operation brought only temporary success. As soon as the effects of surprise were gone, the Poles went to counter-attack. They dislodged the Germans from coalmines Karol and Jurand after a long and eager fight. The main force of the Polish counter-attack constituted former Silesian insurgents, organized in veteran units. With aid hastened veterans from Chropaczow and Lipiny, and a regular army unit from Godula. The bands were completely defeated. A complete fiasco also bore repeated bands' attacks on Brzeziny Slaskie. On 1 September they managed to seize the coal-mine Orzeł Biały, but soon they were dislodged by the counter-attack of Captain Bomba's company from the Entrenched Camp Katowice and a veteran unit. On 2 September took place another attack, but again it was repelled by the veteran company, reinforced by two veteran platoons from Brzozowice-Kamien and Wielka Dabrowka.
A quite serious situation happened in the area of Chorzow, Maciejkowice and Michalkowice where a several hundred strong band from the Freikorps Ebbinghaus by night 31 August to 1 September crossed unnoticed the positions of the Polish defence and attacked them from the rear. The defence of Maciejkowice was made of Lt. Alfons Piecha's company of popular militia and veteran companies of Edmund Ledwoń and Karol Marcinkowski. They held the town until Polish armoured cars, supported by regular units, came with aid and forced assailants to flee. During the fights in Chorzow some 100 Germans with their chief Karol Mania were taken prisoners. Also failed the attack on the coal-mine Michał. The evening situation report for the command of the Army Kraków's of 1 September informed about liquidation of all the German bands; the prisoners were summarily shot. Therefore the Germans failed to take the Upper Silesian industrial region by surprise.
They raised their heads once again on 3 September when the Army Kraków, in order to avoid encirclement, started the withdrawal of its troops from Silesia. In Pszczyna armed bands attacked the 2nd Battalion of the 20th Infantry Regiment from the 6th Infantry Division. As the battalion was marching out of the town, from windows, from backyards, from cemeteries resounded treacherous shots, which disorganized its retreat. In Bielsko-Biala another attack aimed at the headquarter of the 21st Infantry Division and its troops marching through the town, which was practically in the German hands. The Polish retreat took place amidst the chaos of arsons, detonations and intensive shooting. By evening the division's headquarter was almost surrounded and since 22:00 had found itself under permanent machine-gun fire, conducted from the textile works Jankowski some 30-40m away.
But the most dramatic one was undoubtfully the armed rebellion organized by the "fifth column" in Bydgoszcz. The military situation in Pomerania turned against the Poles within very first hours of the campaign. The command of the Army Pomorze had decided to withdraw its troops from Tuchola Forest southward. Since the passages across the Vistula in Chelmno were already destroyed, the only alternative route was through Bydgoszcz. In those circumstances Bydgoszcz gained strategic importance, because its fall into enemy hands could disorganize the northern wing of Polish defence in its most important point. Substantial Polish forces - Pomorska Cavalry Brigade, 9th and 27th Infantry Divisions, and two battalions of popular militia - had to retreat through the city, while it was covered by the 15th Infantry Division. On 3 September about 10:00 they were attacked by the hitlerite squads, reinforced by some bands from the Reich and Free City Danzig. Soldiers and civilians suddenly found themselves under the machine-gun fire conducted from the windows, from the woods, from behind the fences. The toll of the dead and wounded grew. Within few hours saboteurs seized many vital points throughout the city, causing disorganization and chaos among the troops, and panic among the inhabitants. It was not until several hours later that the situation was under control again. Fifty defence nests, all generously equipped with weapons and ammunition, were gradually liquidated in stout fights. All the day 4 September the city was combed out by the troops, while the saboteurs had been hastily court-martialled and summarily executed. However, the overall situation on the front soon forced Polish troops to further retreat. As the Germans occupied Bydgoszcz, they took a bloody revenge for the suppressed rebellion.
A trouble somewhat similar, but to a lesser scale also occurred on Hel peninsula, on the northernmost tip of the country. The region adjacent to the Gulf of Danzig for centuries has been inhabited by indigenous Slavic people, Kashubians. Although in the past they were subjected to germanization, they had managed to preserve their distinct culture and language. In 1920's and 1930's there was some Kashubian nationalist movement in the Free City Danzig, but generally the Kashubians opted for Poland and in September 1939 they unanimously supported the Polish cause. The wartime hardships and nazi propaganda, though, might induce some of them with defeatist feelings. On 19 September, after surrender of Gdynia, some Kashubians demanded that Hel capitulate as well, in order to spare sufferings to the civilian population. A band of armed men, civilians and sailors alike, seized the headquarter of the commander of the Entrenched Camp Hel, Rear-Admiral Włodzimierz Steyer, and demanded an order to surrender. The rebellion was promptly suppressed. Steyer ordered immediate execution of the leaders, but spared others. Providing that Hel had to capitulate sooner or later (actually it took place on 2 October), that was certainly a wise decision, for it left no grounds for mutual Polish-Kashubian hostility. Under the German occupation the Kashubians took part in the resistance movement together with the Poles.
A completely different situation emerged in Poland's most south-eastern region inhabited by the Ukrainians - Galicia. Those territories, conquered by Poland in the 16th and 17th centuries from Russia, for centuries had been the scene of oppression of local inhabitants and their bloody uprisings. In the 18th and 19th centuries Galicia found itself in the Habsburg realm. Seeking a balance for both Polish and Russian influence, the Austrians undertook a long-lasting campaign of ukrainization, which resulted in creation of a nationalist movement based on a groundless theory, that the Ukrainians are the only true Slavic people, distinctively different from both the Russians and the Poles, and constitute a different race, presumably superior and descending from ancient Troy. During the First World War and the civil war in Russia, the Germans, and then the Poles, attempted to create a Ukrainian "fifth column" against the Russians, but did not succeed. On the other hand, the Austro-Hungarian legacy created a substantial dissent and unrest in Galicia. As Ukrainian nationalist activities quickened towards the end of 1920's and in 1930's, the Polish régime resorted to reprisals. Ukrainian language and organizations were banned, and in 1930's the military and police carried out a number of pacification campaigns, which led to many arrests, widespread brutality and intimidation, and destruction of property. In 1930's Polish authorities promoted, sometimes by force, the conversion of the Orthodox to the Roman Catholicism (so-called Union) and seized hundreds of Orthodox churches for closure, destruction, or transfer to the Roman Catholic Church. All that provided a fertile soil for the idea of creation of "independent" Ukraine, which would comprise lands carved out of Russia, Poland, Czechoslovakia and Romania. This goal was pursued by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, created in 1929 in Vienna by Jewhen Konowalec. Authoritarian in structure, conspiratorial in its methods, and influenced by nazi theories, OUN carried out acts of sabotage and assassinations of Polish officials, the most spectacular being the murder of the Polish minister of interior, Bronisław Pieracki. Since 1933, when the nazis seized power in Germany, OUN started to see the alliance with German fascists as the way to achieve its goals, and offered its assistance to the German special services in their undeclared war against Poland.
As the Polish defence, as well as state authorities, collapsed in September 1939 the Ukrainians activated sabotage and diversion against the Polish troops retreating towards the Romanian border, and launched the slaughter of civilian population, first of all the Poles and Jews in Stanislawow, Kolomyja, Trembowla and Buczacz. This action naturally caused a counteraction of the Polish troops, which undertook brutal pacificatory actions. The whole Poland's south-eastern frontier found itself at the threshold of a civil war and only the approach of the Red Army ceased the hostilities. Not for long though. After the outbreak of the Germano-Soviet war the Ukrainians raised their heads again. They openly allied with the Germans in their genocidal policy in occupied territories, and conducted regular war on Polish and Soviet partisans and civilians. They also played a substantial role in extermination of the Jews, especially in Warsaw ghetto. Even after the war they conducted their criminal activities in the USSR, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary and Romania. Although the Ukrainian nationalist movement was eventually suppressed in the end of 1940's, it still has supporters and advocates, most notably in the United States and Canada.
Paul Neumann
APOCALYPSIS IOANNIS 21, 8:
--
Timidis autem et incredulis et exsecratis et homicidis et fornicatoribus et veneficis et idololatris et omnibus mendacibus, pars illorum erit in stagno ardenti igne et sulphure, quod est mors secunda.
--
Timidis autem et incredulis et exsecratis et homicidis et fornicatoribus et veneficis et idololatris et omnibus mendacibus, pars illorum erit in stagno ardenti igne et sulphure, quod est mors secunda.
I don't know.......
dude I don't know what to say, you certainley seem to know your stuff to the degree that i'm left standing like a slack-jawed yokel you state in your first paragraph the methodology of covertly arming insurgent elements within poland, this method is not really any different to that used by the british in occupied france to arm thier agents and the maquis.
You mention also the attack on Katowicz, this was also employed by the allies several times prior to the normandy landings you know blow up this railroad capture this bridge that kind of a way?.
It seems to me that you are strongly proud of your heritage and the depth of knowledge that you display does you proud and although I know next to nothing about the attacks you mention-keep up the good work, its good to learn new things about a favorate period of history-peace
Vergeiessmeincht
You mention also the attack on Katowicz, this was also employed by the allies several times prior to the normandy landings you know blow up this railroad capture this bridge that kind of a way?.
It seems to me that you are strongly proud of your heritage and the depth of knowledge that you display does you proud and although I know next to nothing about the attacks you mention-keep up the good work, its good to learn new things about a favorate period of history-peace
Vergeiessmeincht
Will
"Where The German Soldier Sets Foot, There He Remains"
Adolf Hitler-27 September 1942
"Where The German Soldier Sets Foot, There He Remains"
Adolf Hitler-27 September 1942
-
Henrik Krog
- Contributor
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2002 12:50 pm
- Contact:
Re: German 5th Column – 1939
To be honest, I dont see the big difference between what you describe the Germans as doing, and what the Poles had themselves done in Teschen in 1938 and the Karpato-Ukraine in 1938-39. Hey, throw in what they did in Upper Silesia in 1920, and you have got yourself a nifty pattern of behavior.
That be as it may, I generally become suspicious, when an author sees a need to attach tendentious words to his utterances, they be "treacherous", "fascist", "pinko" or whatever. It shows a desire to not just report facts, but paint whatever party is the object of description as the "bad", "evil" or "criminal" one. And I dont buy that.
Many of the articles on Neumanns site have the same somewhat.....tendentious slant, echoing the wording many books from the old Soviet Block used. Today national socialists (not in the interwar German sence, not nazis, but....lets call them born-again left-wing ultranationalists) from primarily Serbia, Russia and Poland maintain this lingo, while actual ultranationalists from the same, and other, places, use a somewhat modified form.
Generally, I dont buy the tentious language, but try to sift out what actually happened, and place a huge question mark at any numbers and certainly any assumptions made about the motivations of any organisation or individual.
The articles you cite, by the way, both fail to mention that some 12.000 civilian ethnic German Poles were killed during the invasion of Poland in September 1939, by a mix of Polish police, Gendarmerie, army units and civilians. And this was in the few days the Polish forces were actually in control of regions populated by ethnic German Poles.
Of course, the nazis later tried to inflate this number to some 40-50.000, but that has been disproven long ago.
Henrik
That be as it may, I generally become suspicious, when an author sees a need to attach tendentious words to his utterances, they be "treacherous", "fascist", "pinko" or whatever. It shows a desire to not just report facts, but paint whatever party is the object of description as the "bad", "evil" or "criminal" one. And I dont buy that.
Many of the articles on Neumanns site have the same somewhat.....tendentious slant, echoing the wording many books from the old Soviet Block used. Today national socialists (not in the interwar German sence, not nazis, but....lets call them born-again left-wing ultranationalists) from primarily Serbia, Russia and Poland maintain this lingo, while actual ultranationalists from the same, and other, places, use a somewhat modified form.
Generally, I dont buy the tentious language, but try to sift out what actually happened, and place a huge question mark at any numbers and certainly any assumptions made about the motivations of any organisation or individual.
The articles you cite, by the way, both fail to mention that some 12.000 civilian ethnic German Poles were killed during the invasion of Poland in September 1939, by a mix of Polish police, Gendarmerie, army units and civilians. And this was in the few days the Polish forces were actually in control of regions populated by ethnic German Poles.
Of course, the nazis later tried to inflate this number to some 40-50.000, but that has been disproven long ago.
Henrik
Somosierra wrote:German 5th Column – 1939
Before the WWII, Germany started psychological war against Poland. Adolf Hitler had two main aims:
1] To prepare Germans for future war;
2] To find good reasons to start the war – of course there can be only Polish guilt (like “restrictions” according to Germans living in Poland).
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Henrik Krog
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Re: German 5th Column – 1939
To be honest, I dont see the big difference between what you describe the Germans as doing, and what the Poles had themselves done in Teschen in 1938 and the Karpato-Ukraine in 1938-39. Hey, throw in what they did in Upper Silesia in 1920, and you have got yourself a nifty pattern of behavior.
That be as it may, I generally become suspicious, when an author sees a need to attach tendentious words to his utterances, they be "treacherous", "fascist", "pinko" or whatever. It shows a desire to not just report facts, but paint whatever party is the object of description as the "bad", "evil" or "criminal" one. And I dont buy that.
Many of the articles on Neumanns site have the same somewhat.....tendentious slant, echoing the wording many books from the old Soviet Block used. Today national socialists (not in the interwar German sence, not nazis, but....lets call them born-again left-wing ultranationalists) from primarily Serbia, Russia and Poland maintain this lingo, while actual ultranationalists from the same, and other, places, use a somewhat modified form.
Generally, I dont buy the tentious language, but try to sift out what actually happened, and place a huge question mark at any numbers and certainly any assumptions made about the motivations of any organisation or individual.
The articles you cite, by the way, both fail to mention that some 12.000 civilian ethnic German Poles were killed during the invasion of Poland in September 1939, by a mix of Polish police, Gendarmerie, army units and civilians. And this was in the few days the Polish forces were actually in control of regions populated by ethnic German Poles.
Of course, the nazis later tried to inflate this number to some 40-50.000, but that has been disproven long ago.
Henrik
That be as it may, I generally become suspicious, when an author sees a need to attach tendentious words to his utterances, they be "treacherous", "fascist", "pinko" or whatever. It shows a desire to not just report facts, but paint whatever party is the object of description as the "bad", "evil" or "criminal" one. And I dont buy that.
Many of the articles on Neumanns site have the same somewhat.....tendentious slant, echoing the wording many books from the old Soviet Block used. Today national socialists (not in the interwar German sence, not nazis, but....lets call them born-again left-wing ultranationalists) from primarily Serbia, Russia and Poland maintain this lingo, while actual ultranationalists from the same, and other, places, use a somewhat modified form.
Generally, I dont buy the tentious language, but try to sift out what actually happened, and place a huge question mark at any numbers and certainly any assumptions made about the motivations of any organisation or individual.
The articles you cite, by the way, both fail to mention that some 12.000 civilian ethnic German Poles were killed during the invasion of Poland in September 1939, by a mix of Polish police, Gendarmerie, army units and civilians. And this was in the few days the Polish forces were actually in control of regions populated by ethnic German Poles.
Of course, the nazis later tried to inflate this number to some 40-50.000, but that has been disproven long ago.
Henrik
Somosierra wrote:German 5th Column – 1939
Before the WWII, Germany started psychological war against Poland. Adolf Hitler had two main aims:
1] To prepare Germans for future war;
2] To find good reasons to start the war – of course there can be only Polish guilt (like “restrictions” according to Germans living in Poland).
-
Somosierra
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Re: German 5th Column – 1939
I see the difference.Henrik Krog wrote:To be honest, I dont see the big difference between what you describe the Germans as doing, and what the Poles had themselves done in Teschen in 1938 and the Karpato-Ukraine in 1938-39. Hey, throw in what they did in Upper Silesia in 1920, and you have got yourself a nifty pattern of behavior.
I will be happy to see your sources.Henrik Krog wrote:The articles you cite, by the way, both fail to mention that some 12.000 civilian ethnic German Poles were killed during the invasion of Poland in September 1939, by a mix of Polish police, Gendarmerie, army units and civilians. And this was in the few days the Polish forces were actually in control of regions populated by ethnic German Poles.
Of course, the nazis later tried to inflate this number to some 40-50.000, but that has been disproven long ago.
Henrik
APOCALYPSIS IOANNIS 21, 8:
--
Timidis autem et incredulis et exsecratis et homicidis et fornicatoribus et veneficis et idololatris et omnibus mendacibus, pars illorum erit in stagno ardenti igne et sulphure, quod est mors secunda.
--
Timidis autem et incredulis et exsecratis et homicidis et fornicatoribus et veneficis et idololatris et omnibus mendacibus, pars illorum erit in stagno ardenti igne et sulphure, quod est mors secunda.
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Henrik Krog
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Re: German 5th Column – 1939
Well, good for you. What is it?Somosierra wrote:I see the difference.Henrik Krog wrote:To be honest, I dont see the big difference between what you describe the Germans as doing, and what the Poles had themselves done in Teschen in 1938 and the Karpato-Ukraine in 1938-39.
Sure. Ill dig them up. What are the sources for the actions you describe? And I am not talking about the URLs for the websites.Somosierra wrote:I will be happy to see your sources.Henrik Krog wrote:The articles you cite, by the way, both fail to mention that some 12.000 civilian ethnic German Poles were killed during the invasion of Poland in September 1939, by a mix of Polish police, Gendarmerie, army units and civilians. And this was in the few days the Polish forces were actually in control of regions populated by ethnic German Poles.
Of course, the nazis later tried to inflate this number to some 40-50.000, but that has been disproven long ago.
Henrik
I think I may just have to go back a little on the number. Following the war (in November 1939), the Germans found some 5437 massacred civilians. For propaganda purposes, they doubled over this number several times to 58.000.
But to be honest, its hard to figure out whether that number (the former) is just for Bromberg/Bygoszcz (sorry if my Polish spelling is off), or for the entirety of Poland. The sources differ a bit about that.
I would myself guess the latter, though.
The east German historian Theodor Bierschenk counted 12.857 in 1954.
What actually happened is neither your version of massive guerilla attack on retreating Polish forces (at Nuremberg the Poles accused Germans for killing more than 200 soldiers in this way), or outright massacre by Polish troops as the Germans claimed, but the following:
Polish troops were retreating through Bromberg/Bydgoszcz, while rumours spread about German troops on the outskirts of the city. When it became clear that this was not the case, the troops decided to have a go at the German minority (or majority, its hard to figure out) of the town. That is probably where your courts martial come from. In the process, the soldiers undoubtedly also took away anything that the German could use as weapons - in self defense or otherwise.
Given that the soldiers were still supposed to retreat, though, they left the town in the evening. Before that happened, the commander, Major Albrycht, had organized and armed a Home Guard-esque organisation in the city, constituted of its Polish citizens.
Needless to say, given the state of affairs, that was like making wolves guard sheep. So, along with newly arriving soldiers the Home Guard began shooting suspected 5th columnists on the spot, plundering houses, and burning down a church.
The description is from Benz, Wolfgang: "Legenden, Lügen, Vorurteile", dtv 4666, München 1992
Henrik
Henrik -- about Bydgoszcz,
in Poland lately we found documents about "Bydgoszcz 1939"
Children of polish victims of german army court changed judgement , now we know that it was" judge crime"
Now this thing is in german court - a few people wons !!
The same problem is with polish "post workers" from Gdansk (Free City Danzing) they protected polish post office in September 1939 , they should be treat like prisoners of war
German army court "kiled" them.
But your information is interesting-I know german point of view!
Sorry for my english
in Poland lately we found documents about "Bydgoszcz 1939"
Children of polish victims of german army court changed judgement , now we know that it was" judge crime"
Now this thing is in german court - a few people wons !!
The same problem is with polish "post workers" from Gdansk (Free City Danzing) they protected polish post office in September 1939 , they should be treat like prisoners of war
German army court "kiled" them.
But your information is interesting-I know german point of view!
Sorry for my english
-
Somosierra
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I know German point of view since 1933, or 1871, or 1795, or even before…
APOCALYPSIS IOANNIS 21, 8:
--
Timidis autem et incredulis et exsecratis et homicidis et fornicatoribus et veneficis et idololatris et omnibus mendacibus, pars illorum erit in stagno ardenti igne et sulphure, quod est mors secunda.
--
Timidis autem et incredulis et exsecratis et homicidis et fornicatoribus et veneficis et idololatris et omnibus mendacibus, pars illorum erit in stagno ardenti igne et sulphure, quod est mors secunda.
Old-fashioned Nationalist Propaganda-here the Polish version
Read the book Orphans of Versailles by Richard Blanke, prof. at the University of Maine, for the detailed description of:
1. A Polish minority policy that by 1930 had forced out 500,000 native Germans out of 1 million living in Poland in 1920, with boycotts, mob violence etc. Jews and Ukrainians were harshly treated, the Ukrainians even far worse than Jews or Germans.
2. The killing in Sept. 1939 of at least 5 to 6,000 German civilians on the basis of baseless rumors about fifth columnists--later tried to be covered up by the kind of stories posted by Somosierra.
Blanke's detailed study is sold by Amazon.com. My father's family comes from the area of Elbing, and it is stunning to see such Polish nationalist propaganda still being bandied about. Or perhaps they are right? All Germans were Nazis, all Jews Commies, and hence Poles fully justified in killing the one or the other, there was no need to inquire about personal guilt.
1. A Polish minority policy that by 1930 had forced out 500,000 native Germans out of 1 million living in Poland in 1920, with boycotts, mob violence etc. Jews and Ukrainians were harshly treated, the Ukrainians even far worse than Jews or Germans.
2. The killing in Sept. 1939 of at least 5 to 6,000 German civilians on the basis of baseless rumors about fifth columnists--later tried to be covered up by the kind of stories posted by Somosierra.
Blanke's detailed study is sold by Amazon.com. My father's family comes from the area of Elbing, and it is stunning to see such Polish nationalist propaganda still being bandied about. Or perhaps they are right? All Germans were Nazis, all Jews Commies, and hence Poles fully justified in killing the one or the other, there was no need to inquire about personal guilt.
Honny soit qui mal y pense!
Dear OPA
Polish was not an angels !!!!
but part of german civilians in Sep 1939 was " Vcolumn" and polish cath tem in civilian uniforms with guns ! like in all countries they killed part of them
I think that your family are from Elblag - it was german city to 1945 , and to this city went polish from "old" polish territory . They did not have home and place to living. And after war we did not have polish propaganda -- a headquarter was in MOSCOW
((.
After war for polish all germans was Nazi and all Jaws was communist. ---it was normal for people who was in german and russian prisons
BUT NOT NOW .
I have friends from Germany , I'm living in Wroclaw - Breslau , I know that this city is part of german history In Silesia are many memorials for Russian soldiers and a few for German Soldiers!!!!
I'm intresting history of Europe because we all citizens of Europe !
Sorry for my english
Polish was not an angels !!!!
but part of german civilians in Sep 1939 was " Vcolumn" and polish cath tem in civilian uniforms with guns ! like in all countries they killed part of them
I think that your family are from Elblag - it was german city to 1945 , and to this city went polish from "old" polish territory . They did not have home and place to living. And after war we did not have polish propaganda -- a headquarter was in MOSCOW
((.After war for polish all germans was Nazi and all Jaws was communist. ---it was normal for people who was in german and russian prisons
BUT NOT NOW .
I have friends from Germany , I'm living in Wroclaw - Breslau , I know that this city is part of german history In Silesia are many memorials for Russian soldiers and a few for German Soldiers!!!!
I'm intresting history of Europe because we all citizens of Europe !
Sorry for my english