What KsTN were Schn.Abt.602 and 608 organized under ? From what I can tell these and other schnelle abt (west front 1944) units had 1 Kp mot.inf and 2 or 3 kp. bicycle inf.
thanks,
Mad Dog
schnelle abt.602 and 608
Moderator: Tom Houlihan
Re: schnelle abt.602 and 608
Hello MadDog !
You can follow the sequence of formation of those schnelle Abteilungen, when you look at :
1) Order AHA Ia VII Nr. 1136/43 g.Kdos. (see first scan)
which orders the simple redesignation of the bicycle training compartments outside the ZOI
(Reserve-Kavallerie Abt.) into schnelle Abteilung 5xx, 6xx.
So at that tiome the name changed, but all schnelle Abteilungen listed in the document,
were still training units for recruits.
The corresponding KStNs for such a schnelle Abteilung as training unit should have been
- Stab Radf.-Ausb.Abt., KStN 6109 (1.10.42) (incl. Nachr.Staffel)
strength of HQ-unit : 4 Offc./ 3 Officials/ 23 NCO/ 67 EM.
These numbers contain a signals training platoon with 5 NCO/39 EM, of which 30 EM were recruits.
- 3 Radfahr-Ausbildungs-Schwadronen [KStN 6131 (1.10.42)].
Each such bicycle trainings company would have had (theoretically) 6 le.MG., 2 s.MG, 3 5cm Gr.W.
Total company strength : 5 Offc./ 23 NCO/ 204 EM. (of which 180 EM were recruits.)
(The KStNs can be found in T78 R396 H1/24, pp. 206 and 212)
2) The next step can be found in spring 1944 (T78 R411 F6379117, resp. F6379124 (for 602 and 608), scan #2),
where the Umgliederung (reorganization) of 1 bicycle company within each battalion into
a schwere Ausbildungs Schwadron (mot) is ordered (KStN 6155 (1.4.44), T78 R394 H1/18, p. 44).
Also, an additional Pi-Zug was authorised for each Abt. and the le.Gr.W. squadrons within each company
should be dissolved. (Handwritten text at the top).
Such a motorized heavy company would have a s.MG.-Zug (4 s.MG), a mittl.Gr.W.Zug with 3 m.Gr.W.(8cm)
and a heavy Pak-Zug ( 3 Pak 7,5cm or 7,62 cm). Total company strength : 4 Offc./ 30 NCO/ 224 EM.
3) The third step can be found on T78 R411 F6379098 (dated 05.05.44, scan #3), where all schnelle Abteilungen
under schn.Brig. West 20 and 30 had converted to the new Gliederung. At the same time, they had
gone rid of their le. Gr.W., too.
However, I have no Gliederung for schn.Abt. 602 and 608 for that date, so one can only assume,
that they had a similar Gliederung at that time.
The text at the buttom notes, that it was planned to send one company of each Abteilung
back to the ZOI (Heimatkriegsgebiet) (I am not sure, whether this ever happened)
and that the schnelle Abteilungen should be transferred to the field army.
4) The final step can be seen from the text at diagonals of the above frame, where it is stated
that all schnelle Abteilungen are transferred to the field army in their current composition (Gliederung).
(Two orders, dating 27.7.44 and 30.7.44).
A bit long, but I hope that was in general, what you were looking for
!
Best regards,
hero.
You can follow the sequence of formation of those schnelle Abteilungen, when you look at :
1) Order AHA Ia VII Nr. 1136/43 g.Kdos. (see first scan)
which orders the simple redesignation of the bicycle training compartments outside the ZOI
(Reserve-Kavallerie Abt.) into schnelle Abteilung 5xx, 6xx.
So at that tiome the name changed, but all schnelle Abteilungen listed in the document,
were still training units for recruits.
The corresponding KStNs for such a schnelle Abteilung as training unit should have been
- Stab Radf.-Ausb.Abt., KStN 6109 (1.10.42) (incl. Nachr.Staffel)
strength of HQ-unit : 4 Offc./ 3 Officials/ 23 NCO/ 67 EM.
These numbers contain a signals training platoon with 5 NCO/39 EM, of which 30 EM were recruits.
- 3 Radfahr-Ausbildungs-Schwadronen [KStN 6131 (1.10.42)].
Each such bicycle trainings company would have had (theoretically) 6 le.MG., 2 s.MG, 3 5cm Gr.W.
Total company strength : 5 Offc./ 23 NCO/ 204 EM. (of which 180 EM were recruits.)
(The KStNs can be found in T78 R396 H1/24, pp. 206 and 212)
2) The next step can be found in spring 1944 (T78 R411 F6379117, resp. F6379124 (for 602 and 608), scan #2),
where the Umgliederung (reorganization) of 1 bicycle company within each battalion into
a schwere Ausbildungs Schwadron (mot) is ordered (KStN 6155 (1.4.44), T78 R394 H1/18, p. 44).
Also, an additional Pi-Zug was authorised for each Abt. and the le.Gr.W. squadrons within each company
should be dissolved. (Handwritten text at the top).
Such a motorized heavy company would have a s.MG.-Zug (4 s.MG), a mittl.Gr.W.Zug with 3 m.Gr.W.(8cm)
and a heavy Pak-Zug ( 3 Pak 7,5cm or 7,62 cm). Total company strength : 4 Offc./ 30 NCO/ 224 EM.
3) The third step can be found on T78 R411 F6379098 (dated 05.05.44, scan #3), where all schnelle Abteilungen
under schn.Brig. West 20 and 30 had converted to the new Gliederung. At the same time, they had
gone rid of their le. Gr.W., too.
However, I have no Gliederung for schn.Abt. 602 and 608 for that date, so one can only assume,
that they had a similar Gliederung at that time.
The text at the buttom notes, that it was planned to send one company of each Abteilung
back to the ZOI (Heimatkriegsgebiet) (I am not sure, whether this ever happened)
and that the schnelle Abteilungen should be transferred to the field army.
4) The final step can be seen from the text at diagonals of the above frame, where it is stated
that all schnelle Abteilungen are transferred to the field army in their current composition (Gliederung).
(Two orders, dating 27.7.44 and 30.7.44).
A bit long, but I hope that was in general, what you were looking for
!Best regards,
hero.
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- T78_R849_F0092_02b.jpg (20.38 KiB) Viewed 3195 times
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- Schn_Abt_602_608_158_Res_Div_03_44_2.jpg (10.79 KiB) Viewed 3195 times
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- KGl_Ersatzheer_43_44_Schn_Brig_30_02.jpg (23.72 KiB) Viewed 3195 times
Re: schnelle abt.602 and 608
Hero, once again I am in your debt. I was about to post the KSTN # I found (thanks to help from Piet Duits) for 602 and 608, but you have already posted them.
One small difference is that for a gliederung I found for 602 and 608 on October 1, 1943 (LXXX corps - T314 R1583 f008) is the presence of a reiter sqn. - which if I remember correctly was KSTN 6111 (I really have to write these down on something other than post-it notes...).
Given the changes in all the other schnelle abt. in the west, I should of noted the hand-written text in the T78 R411 roll. 608 may or may not of had the extra Kp.(by the 1944 retreat), unlike the other units, but again, I cannot say one way or another.
thanks,
Mad Dog
One small difference is that for a gliederung I found for 602 and 608 on October 1, 1943 (LXXX corps - T314 R1583 f008) is the presence of a reiter sqn. - which if I remember correctly was KSTN 6111 (I really have to write these down on something other than post-it notes...).
- 602-608.jpg (64.45 KiB) Viewed 3182 times
thanks,
Mad Dog