German Maps

[blurrededge]

Hello,
I have a german army issue map of Kursk area, It is 1.100.000 scale and possibly be considered a 'local' map. The map issued in 1941 and is a copy of an original russian army issue map from 1921, beneath each russian name place is the german translation. A while back I asked if anyone understood the german map numbering system, but no one had any ideas, I now think I understand it. My map is numbered blatt Nr-M37-1-west, (sheet number M-37-1-west), 36 to 37 degrees east of greenwich - about 70 kilometers, 51 to 52 latitude - again about 70 kilometers. The 'M' refers to latitude, (the next map above would be N37 etc), 37 refers to the logitude. I think the '1' notifies the reader that there is a series from 1 to 20, but I am guessing that the local map numbering would go that high. East and west is east and west!. If anyone knows different please correct me.
Now is my request, I am looking for photo copies or information on M-37-1-ost, M37-11-west and ost, hopefully this should reach Voronesh.

many thanks in advance,

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[nigelfe]

The interesting thing is the implication that the Germans had obtained Russian maps, and by the sound of it a set. The USSR guarded its maps closely, I've always understood they regarded them as serious military secrets and distribution was always very limited. Is the date more explicit - ie a date in 1941, which would indicate whether it was before or after Barbarossa started?

[blurrededge]

Hello Nigelfe,

All armies use captured equipment, everything from food, cloths and weapons. Examples in the case of Germany, from Czechs the 38T tank, from the French army - shirts amongst other things. The germans were great recyclers of allsorts of equipment, I've recently saw pictures of a sherman being evaluated by the german army. In the case of maps, it seems to be quite common for the germans to re-use captured maps in two ways. First, re-issued with german translation and second, reprinted on the reverse but I am not sure if it was the same area or a new one.
In the case of 'Barbarossa', I can only speculate on what was available to the german army in 1941 but I have read somewhere that german units using old tourist maps to make there advance. As units advanced, they started to pick up equipment abandoned and won in battle. Many divisions daily reports of captured/destroyed equipment, prisoners, guns and aircraft the most common reported. As for my map, the russian print is in brown ink and the german ink is in black. It has the russian/german alphabet which is common to all captured maps but gives no indication to what month it was printed. Thanks for your input it had me reaching for the map and magnifing glass.

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[nigelfe]

I'm well aware about about using captured maps, I'm currently finalising a new pg for my web site that touches on the subject. It's not quite as simple as it sometimes seems, particularly such matters as the geodetic standards.

I think you can bet on the Sovs not having any tourist maps in 1921, for starters this was the time of the civil war. The important point is that in the Red Army maps were not widely distributed. They were important state secrets.

It's possible that the Germans acquired a set when they overan a Military District HQ somewhere, eg Kiev. But my question was whether the map you have was dated by the Germans as before or after B started. If before and if they had a complete set then the NKVD would have been deeply agitated because it would suggest the Germans had an agent in an important place.

[phylo_roadking]

Certainly AFTER the war, it was Soviet policy that all maps supplied in any way to the west whether simplistic tiurist maps or scientific resource maps would have most items of navigational interest slightly - or MORE than slightly - displaced, to prevent their use for aerail navigation of strategic bombers etc. Lakes, towns, mountain peaks, river courses would all be altered. Hence the rush in the U.S. post war for high-level aerial and satellite photography, not just for intelligence gathering on defences etc., but to provide SAC with highly accurate maps. The late 30s saw the introduction of highlevel aerial photography, and its known that the Germans made a series of very high level flights over Eastern Russia in 1941 using a He188 converted for very high flight. The same aircraft was also used over the UK several times.
I wouldnt doubt at all that getting hold of the Soveits OWN maps would be a priority for the Abwehr BEFORE Barbarossa, and for the Whermacht AFTER it, to combine all available data.

P.S. Ive said before, wouldnt it be an interesting history if we had one of the German armour school at Kazan, and a more detailled one of the flight school in the Soviet Union? I dont just mean the events there themselves, but im willing to bet these places were an ants' nest of espionage and counter-espionage LMAO

phylo

[blurrededge]

Sorry I didn't make parts of what I wrote clear, the tourist maps were of german origin and I have seen several of these forsale on ebay. The sellers often think that they have a military map but they have covers like civilian maps, (printed in the 30's), the current map on my wall of western russia was printed in germany in 2003/4. My point being that in times of peace information free flow is much greater, and I take on board your point of russian sercrecy but before barbarossa military exchanges/visits to displays between germany/russia happened. I remember reading that a german general being impressed by russian paratroops on manoeuvres. Other things to take into account would be russian exports raw materials, oil, coal, food stuffs etc, (but proberly not maps), a great trade to which both sides benefitted and possibly lulled russia into a false sense of security. As phylo states espionage went on prior to barbarossa and any action on this scale would have to had many maps, and I'm sure the NKVD would have been 'unhappy' to put it mildly. As for the date of exact production of this map, I would love to know. thanks again for your comments.

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[nigelfe]

It's true that the Luftwaffe was trained in the USSR airspace away from western eyes and that there was military training there as well. However, acquiring complete sets of maps is of a different order of things, particularly for an area as large as the W USSR. The air photo recce effort would have been immense, you can't assemble the covereage you need for map making in a few high altitude flights (not even with satellites).

Of course given the date of 1921 then it's possible the Germans acquired the maps from White Russian sources.

Its not widely known that one of the important things that Hilter did when he came to power was to sort out German mapping and put it on a national basis instead of letting each state do its own thing, including geodetic standards. Of course during WW2 the Brits still concluded that German maps of Germany were inadequtes for military operations (no contours, hachuring instead). On the other hand by 1944 they'd produced a good set of new maps covering the Netherlands, which the Brits managed to get hold of and promptly stopped work on their own series.

[blurrededge]

Sorry for not replying yesterday - I had to go and think . Your first point regarding overflights of western russia, yes I think your right on two counts.
a; russia is huge - I really cann't find the words to express it. b; ariel photograghy of the time from a great hieght was not as detailed as we have today.

Your 'white russians' point really got me thinking and looking. Dig out the maps and brows, the 'kurst' map is the first map that I own that has references to maps twenty years early. All of my other eastern front german maps reference maps one/two years early. Style, 'kursk' map uses an early type of marking, (short/long lines 90 dregress to the summit-hachuring?) for hills, gullies etc. The later maps uses contour lines to to indicate hills etc. I did a quick seach on ebay and found this ww1 german map, Item no; 6638664895). This is similar to the style and finish to the 'Kursk' map, which brings me to this peice of speculation. It is hard to pin piont when an area was first mapped out and what I have could be a updated communist version of a Zarist map, being dated 1919 to 1921.
It would be better if I knew how to post pictures then some of what I write might make sense.
As an aside, looking through some of my 'signal' magazines I noticed an advert for a company that photographed maps for reproduction.
Thanks again for your thoughts.

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[phylo_roadking]

Hi - air recce photography was more advanced than you might think, particulalry by the Germans. They used specially adapted bombers, so their cameras could have a much larger focal plane length, the secret to greater detail in those days. Plus stereoscopic imaging always picks up more data than youd think. During my own research I've seen aerial photographs taken by the Luftwaffe of the planned invasion beaches....for Plan Kathleen on the north coast of Northern Irleand!!! Quite a way to go for poor images lol not. The imaging ius excellent, dated May 1941.

The British and American recce photography which we are more familiar with of course was from fast hi-level fighter aifrcraft like the PR. Spitfires, definition is good, but again more limited requiring faster and more passes to build up images of a substantial area.

phylo

[nigelfe]

Photo-recce and air survey for mp makinf=g purposes at not the same thing. Photo-recce generally deals with pot tagets, survey needs systemic and continupous coverage,and the W USSR was a large space by any criteria. Particularly when you rember it takes months to convert air photo output into printed maps. And there's the small matter of surcey ground control data. Allied surveys of N FRance weren't too hot accuracy wise, and at least they were strting from a passable baseline map - its often forgotten that the only reason the BEF managed to extricate iteself via Dubkirk is that they had the masters for map coverage and could quickly produce quite large qtys in the field. Its this sort of detail that makes an immense difference in reality but is usually ignored by most so called expert historians.

[derGespenst]

By the way, at 52 degrees North Latitutde, one degree of longitude is considerably less than 70 km. The Mercator projection presumably used on your map will cause a certain distortion of distance for that reason.

[blurrededge]

I don't know enough on ariel photography to comment, like most people with an interest in the general subject of this war we have seen ariel view pock-marked battle fields, but I never thorght of what hieght and what with!. I tend to go with nigelfe on the point of converting ariel photography
into maps, it will give you some information but you do need the ground survey. derGespenst - I pulled the Kursk map out again and checked the the kilometers scale. 4" = 10K, map 28" across = 70k, can you explain?.
Anyway I measure it Kursk to Schtschigry, (24th Panzer Div. Start position for 'blau') is approx 46k. Can you explain?.
Thanks again.

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[phylo_roadking]

All, WWII-period HIGH-level aerial photography was EXCELLENT for topological maps - roads, rivers, bridges, railways, towns villages etc. but like any photography is hopeless for terrain except gross features as indicated, and also woodland etc. However, because of my dad's former career i was at the time able to match up the the Plan Kathleen pics with my father's half-inch and quarter-inch Ordnance Survey sets for Northern irland, the match is incredible....AND the differences SO noticable - new roads, disused railway lines bypasses, grown towns etc. This was EXACTLY why the aerial Reconnaisance of Ulster had been ordered, BECAUSE Berlin had no up-to-date maps of Ireland. A few thousand "familiarisation" packs were printed for the edification and delight of the "invasion forces" but not issued, including scenes of idyllic pastoral Irish life, all culled from tourist guides. THIS time not only did they have to use the MAPS from Beiderbeck guides, but they were using the illustrations too! LMAO

Certainly "slices" of terrain photographed by aerial reconnaisance bit by bit would have created excellent maps for Luftwaffe navigation...and im sure the same for the RAF in Western Europe, nad just thinking....there are huge tracts of Eastern Russia and the Steppe where, lets face it, contour maps were almost useless.

P.S. just for information - in Northern Irleand anyway, the modern Ordnance Survey uses the Police Service Northen Irleand's Britten-Norman Islander STOL photo recce aircraft for photo reconaissance....and then merely converts straight across onto map! They merely check certain sampled details on the ground with measuring wheel and live human staff.

[nigelfe]

The issue is whether in the early 1930s the embryo Luftwaffe training in the USSR would have been able to embark on a systematic aerial survey of the western USSR. This would be a major undertaking and assumes the USSR would have 'permitted' Luftwaffe to fly anywhere they wanted. Comparing the huge area of the W USSR with the postage stamp of N Ireland is of course laughable.

Now, in SVN the US Army used 'pictomaps', which were photo-mosaics, gridded and conventionally printed on ordinary map grade paper, they were used to complement conventional maps. However, in the German army mapping and survey was an artillery responsibility (I think it still is). They would have been required to produce maps suitable for artillery operations, this means a high degree of accuracy, both horizontal and vertical. The western USSR is not some ginormous football pitch, in the south and sw it is mountainous and the steppe is actually gently rolling (rather like the N German plain). This means that vertical survey was required. This is a much bigger job than producing a cleaned up pictomap.

I don't think the notion of the Germans doing their own survey of the USSR before June 1941 is very credible, although they might have managed some patches. I think it's quite likely that during the first weeks of Barbarossa they captured some map sets, which they copied. I don't believe that in the early 1920s there were readily available tourist maps, and certainly not at a tactically useful scale. Therefore, I think that the most likely source of any post 1917 maps were from White Russians and the civil war.

Looking at th only reliable English language source on Sov arty - Prof Chris Bellamy's 'Red God of War', there's a photo of a 1940 Sov map captured in Finland, it shows excellant detail and is at 1:25,000 scale, it's also classified Secret although there is no overprinted military detail.

[blurrededge]

I got to go with niglfe on many of the points he makes, yes I would agree that there was so excellent high level aerial photography, but to turn them into map in still requires good old fashioned field work. The point about northern ireland bring a wry smile to my face, this is because we here in england we know this as cut backs that lead to cock-ups!. I have what I consider three types of German maps, Luftwaffe, artillery and heeres. Luftwaffe - (lots of contour lines) map overlaid with two small and one large grid lines, they have references to the set they come. Artillery- very similar the the Luftwaffe. The heeres - single grid with references to the set they come from. They are all mark for military use only, the luft/art maps are of small size and cover about 130k by105,. the heeres maps cover large and small areas. My point, does any one have any eastern front maps that cover the following, Voronesh, Ostrogoshk, Rossosh, Kantemiroka, Mososowskij, Zymijaskaja, Nish Tschirskaja and Kalatsch?.

Thanks again for the input.

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