German POWs
German POWs
where were german prisoners of war kept in Russia and how were they treated by Russians?
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sid guttridge
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Hi Munchener,
German POWs in Russia were treated badly and had a high death rate, as had Soviet POWs in German hands.
As the Soviet Union was not a signatory to the Geneva Convention, it was technically free to ignore its terms. Germany also felt free to ignore its terms, because although it was itself a signatory, the USSR wasn't.
However, such legalistic considerations were actually irrelevent to either country's actions, because both were still subject to the earlier Hague Conventions on the treatment of POWs and both broke them at huge cost in human life.
Cheers,
Sid.
German POWs in Russia were treated badly and had a high death rate, as had Soviet POWs in German hands.
As the Soviet Union was not a signatory to the Geneva Convention, it was technically free to ignore its terms. Germany also felt free to ignore its terms, because although it was itself a signatory, the USSR wasn't.
However, such legalistic considerations were actually irrelevent to either country's actions, because both were still subject to the earlier Hague Conventions on the treatment of POWs and both broke them at huge cost in human life.
Cheers,
Sid.
Hello,
I would like to add that for the front-line soldiers of every combatant nation, not just the Germans in the East or the Soviets, the Geneva Convention had not much practical validity.
Although I can not give precise figures, I strongly suspect that from the testimonies we have, the U.S. and British troops serving in Northwest Europe executed more German prisoners than the other way around.
I would like to add that for the front-line soldiers of every combatant nation, not just the Germans in the East or the Soviets, the Geneva Convention had not much practical validity.
Although I can not give precise figures, I strongly suspect that from the testimonies we have, the U.S. and British troops serving in Northwest Europe executed more German prisoners than the other way around.
Frankly, this is also the impression I get, but I'm no expert. I'd be interested to know more. The Germans and Soviets may have been as bad as each other in the East, but I wonder if the Germans actually behaved better than the Allies in the West, the handful of high-profile Waffen SS atrocities notwithstanding.corderex wrote:I strongly suspect that from the testimonies we have, the U.S. and British troops serving in Northwest Europe executed more German prisoners than the other way around.
Regards
Jake
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sid guttridge
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Hi Corderex,
I very much disagree. The Geneva Convention was adhered to be the overwhelming number of all combatant soldiers, at least in terms of respect for prisoners' lives. Even in the most offending armies those who killed in breach of it were a small minority. Where breaches reached massive proportions, as in the Russian and German cases in Eastern Europe, it was because of official policy.
It is possible that more Germans were executed by Anglo-American troops in North-West Europe than the other way around, but the total is unlikely to reach the thousands. Furthermore, the Anglo-Americans captured nearly 7 million Germans between them, yet nothing like the wholesale loss of life that happened amongst Russian and German prisoners in each others' hands occurred.
By contrast, only a few tens of thousands of Anglo-American prisoners fell into German hands in 1944-45, yet the Malmedy massacre alone appears to be bigger than any single incident alleged against the Anglo-Americans.
The Anglo-Americans had hundreds of times as many opportunities to execute prisoners as the Germans in 1944-45, so the mere fact that we are in doubt as to who actually did execute more prisoners tends to speak relatively well of Anglo-American behaviour. Furthermore, if one subtracts the Waffen-SS from the German total, I doubt the German Army on its own was much different in the West from the Anglo-Americans.
Cheers,
Sid.
I very much disagree. The Geneva Convention was adhered to be the overwhelming number of all combatant soldiers, at least in terms of respect for prisoners' lives. Even in the most offending armies those who killed in breach of it were a small minority. Where breaches reached massive proportions, as in the Russian and German cases in Eastern Europe, it was because of official policy.
It is possible that more Germans were executed by Anglo-American troops in North-West Europe than the other way around, but the total is unlikely to reach the thousands. Furthermore, the Anglo-Americans captured nearly 7 million Germans between them, yet nothing like the wholesale loss of life that happened amongst Russian and German prisoners in each others' hands occurred.
By contrast, only a few tens of thousands of Anglo-American prisoners fell into German hands in 1944-45, yet the Malmedy massacre alone appears to be bigger than any single incident alleged against the Anglo-Americans.
The Anglo-Americans had hundreds of times as many opportunities to execute prisoners as the Germans in 1944-45, so the mere fact that we are in doubt as to who actually did execute more prisoners tends to speak relatively well of Anglo-American behaviour. Furthermore, if one subtracts the Waffen-SS from the German total, I doubt the German Army on its own was much different in the West from the Anglo-Americans.
Cheers,
Sid.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Annelie,
I see you you are still dredging up links to the old Bacque nonsense.
If nearly 1 million German POWs did die in Western Allied hands, why do we have almost no names and almost no graves beyond those declared by the Allies at the time? And where are the six million or more aggrieved relatives?
I know Goebbels used to recommend that a lie should be endlessly and invariably repeated in order to gain a purchase on the public consciousness, but it doesn't matter how many times one repeats a lie it doesn't get any truer, does it?
Cheers,
Sid.
I see you you are still dredging up links to the old Bacque nonsense.
If nearly 1 million German POWs did die in Western Allied hands, why do we have almost no names and almost no graves beyond those declared by the Allies at the time? And where are the six million or more aggrieved relatives?
I know Goebbels used to recommend that a lie should be endlessly and invariably repeated in order to gain a purchase on the public consciousness, but it doesn't matter how many times one repeats a lie it doesn't get any truer, does it?
Cheers,
Sid.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Sid,
Frankly I am sure Munchener can read and determine for himself their
contents and prejudices.
How would this link suit you then?
"http://home.arcor.de/kriegsgefangen/deu ... ssland.htm "
Frankly I am sure Munchener can read and determine for himself their
contents and prejudices.
How would this link suit you then?
"http://home.arcor.de/kriegsgefangen/deu ... ssland.htm "
Annelie
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sid guttridge
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corderex
The Western Allies only adhered to the Geneva Conventions when it suited their purpose. I should know because at wars end our POW status was changed to DEF (disarmed enemy forces) and there by removing us from the protection of the Geneva Conventions. Otherwise our insignia and camo smocks, in most cases was a ticket to upstairs.
Sid,
As usual you assume (that's not the first time either) when saying I was not in US hands, the transfer camps were under US control. I do not remember the place but remember the uniforms.
Maybe you can find some info about the "Rheinwiesenlager" and the Black Madonna of Remagen, I am not alone thinking the name Eisenhowers death camp fits.
But in any case a dispute with you is very frustrating because like the drug companies you look at dozens of studies/reports and cite the one supporting your argument and dismiss the rest. Your ridiculous statement about cremation come to mind and how you can find a report without stating the full conditions by which those results were derived is beyond me. By conditions I mean, operating temperature, air flow and it's composition (O2 contend) and condition of the cadaver to be cremated.
You are right I was not everywhere (fortunately) and usually speak about my own personal environment, which was a lot closer then yours. It seems being born and raised in Dresden, spending the last two war years on several fronts and finally being a POW in Allied hands is insignificant compared to your encyclopedic knowledge Other then that I always point out it's my opinion or speaking to people who were there. Where as your entire knowledge consists of "I read" and then selectively quote what you read. Why does every experience, report/book I mention has to be wrong or incorrect ? and all your sources impeccable and beyond question ? not even you can believe that.
Also I never pretend to be a "superior authority", I leave that to the guy with his 44 hundred plus postings, all of them politically correct and extolling the GOOD GUY image of the Allied forces.
"Gerhard want to prove that the Western Allies were just as bad as Nazi Germany", when making a statement to that effect I usually explain that is simply a matter of degree and depending who keeps the score. I likely knew less about the Holocaust and concentration camps the you did, especially in view of your extensive knowledge about the subject. What I have said was the Allied forces and their actions were just as ruthless as ours, more so at times. Don't bother to mention Dirlewanger and the Einsatz Gruppen, I like to think the were the exception. Otherwise it was Tit for Tat. The gist of most of my statements was my comrades and I conducted ourselves as soldiers, more disciplined as the enemy we faced but at the end were not treated as soldiers.
As all discussions with you usually end up in a acrimonious and frustrating debate and are no longer a exchange of views and experiences, so Sid you can now refer to me, if you feel the need, as the long departed Gerhard like just like Joscha.
Gerhard
The Western Allies only adhered to the Geneva Conventions when it suited their purpose. I should know because at wars end our POW status was changed to DEF (disarmed enemy forces) and there by removing us from the protection of the Geneva Conventions. Otherwise our insignia and camo smocks, in most cases was a ticket to upstairs.
Sid,
As usual you assume (that's not the first time either) when saying I was not in US hands, the transfer camps were under US control. I do not remember the place but remember the uniforms.
Maybe you can find some info about the "Rheinwiesenlager" and the Black Madonna of Remagen, I am not alone thinking the name Eisenhowers death camp fits.
But in any case a dispute with you is very frustrating because like the drug companies you look at dozens of studies/reports and cite the one supporting your argument and dismiss the rest. Your ridiculous statement about cremation come to mind and how you can find a report without stating the full conditions by which those results were derived is beyond me. By conditions I mean, operating temperature, air flow and it's composition (O2 contend) and condition of the cadaver to be cremated.
You are right I was not everywhere (fortunately) and usually speak about my own personal environment, which was a lot closer then yours. It seems being born and raised in Dresden, spending the last two war years on several fronts and finally being a POW in Allied hands is insignificant compared to your encyclopedic knowledge Other then that I always point out it's my opinion or speaking to people who were there. Where as your entire knowledge consists of "I read" and then selectively quote what you read. Why does every experience, report/book I mention has to be wrong or incorrect ? and all your sources impeccable and beyond question ? not even you can believe that.
Also I never pretend to be a "superior authority", I leave that to the guy with his 44 hundred plus postings, all of them politically correct and extolling the GOOD GUY image of the Allied forces.
"Gerhard want to prove that the Western Allies were just as bad as Nazi Germany", when making a statement to that effect I usually explain that is simply a matter of degree and depending who keeps the score. I likely knew less about the Holocaust and concentration camps the you did, especially in view of your extensive knowledge about the subject. What I have said was the Allied forces and their actions were just as ruthless as ours, more so at times. Don't bother to mention Dirlewanger and the Einsatz Gruppen, I like to think the were the exception. Otherwise it was Tit for Tat. The gist of most of my statements was my comrades and I conducted ourselves as soldiers, more disciplined as the enemy we faced but at the end were not treated as soldiers.
As all discussions with you usually end up in a acrimonious and frustrating debate and are no longer a exchange of views and experiences, so Sid you can now refer to me, if you feel the need, as the long departed Gerhard like just like Joscha.
Gerhard
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sid guttridge
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Hi Gerhard,
By writing "....our insignia and cammo smocks, in most cases was a ticket upstairs" you appear to be contending that the majority of Waffen-SS men taken prisoner by the Western Allies were executed.
Do I read that correctly?
This is not a fifty-fifty argument. There is simply no evidence on your side. If a million Germans died in Western Allied POW camps after the war, there are presumably a million bodies, a million graves, a million missing names and many millions of aggrieved relatives.
Where are they?
I have asked this of you and others for years, but never get a reply (see above on this thread, for example). From this I conclude that there is no substance to Bacque's book and you and his supporters have no interest in producing evidence, just in attempting to spread unsubstantiated smears.
Why? Because you/they just cannot accept, in the face of overwhelming evidence, that the crimes committed in the name of the cause you/they served and/or rever were so much worse than those of some of your/their opponents. You/they condemn the very high death rates of German POWs in Soviet hands and you/they cannot hide the fact of similarly high and even earlier death rates amongst Soviet POWs in German hands. However, the Western Allies did not do something similar to German POWs. So, what to do?
No problem! Just invent a non-existent one million dead German POWs in Western Allied hands. It doesn't matter that there are no graves, no missing names and no aggrieved relatives, just follow Goebbels's dictum of repeating something wiothout variation and in the end people will start to believe that there is no smoke without fire.
Sorry, but there is no fire, because there are no million graves, no million missing names and no multiple millions of aggrieved relatives.
Cheers,
Sid.
By writing "....our insignia and cammo smocks, in most cases was a ticket upstairs" you appear to be contending that the majority of Waffen-SS men taken prisoner by the Western Allies were executed.
Do I read that correctly?
This is not a fifty-fifty argument. There is simply no evidence on your side. If a million Germans died in Western Allied POW camps after the war, there are presumably a million bodies, a million graves, a million missing names and many millions of aggrieved relatives.
Where are they?
I have asked this of you and others for years, but never get a reply (see above on this thread, for example). From this I conclude that there is no substance to Bacque's book and you and his supporters have no interest in producing evidence, just in attempting to spread unsubstantiated smears.
Why? Because you/they just cannot accept, in the face of overwhelming evidence, that the crimes committed in the name of the cause you/they served and/or rever were so much worse than those of some of your/their opponents. You/they condemn the very high death rates of German POWs in Soviet hands and you/they cannot hide the fact of similarly high and even earlier death rates amongst Soviet POWs in German hands. However, the Western Allies did not do something similar to German POWs. So, what to do?
No problem! Just invent a non-existent one million dead German POWs in Western Allied hands. It doesn't matter that there are no graves, no missing names and no aggrieved relatives, just follow Goebbels's dictum of repeating something wiothout variation and in the end people will start to believe that there is no smoke without fire.
Sorry, but there is no fire, because there are no million graves, no million missing names and no multiple millions of aggrieved relatives.
Cheers,
Sid.