Well, that was the song from MASH. But in real life, I've run across instances when German Soldiers preferred to commit suicide rather than be captured by the enemy--particularly on the Ostfront. Were there any circumstances that would justify the taking of one's own life if one was about to be captured?
Why would a perfectly healthy man commit suicide rather than allow himself to be captured?
Best Regards, David
Why suicide versus capture?
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Commissar D, the Evil
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Why suicide versus capture?
Death is lighter than a Feather, Duty is heavier than a Mountain....
Suicide instead of POW.
Have you ever been a POW of the Soviets? Well, I was.
I can well understand that a German rather shot himself than be taken. Panzer soldiers, especially NCOs and officers, were prime targets for being killed by the Reds. There were many of us who carried a 9mm round in the watch pocket for just that purpose.
Go ask Rudi Salvermoser.
The above held especially true for SS panzer types.
Quaere, counsellor: Why so somber?
I can well understand that a German rather shot himself than be taken. Panzer soldiers, especially NCOs and officers, were prime targets for being killed by the Reds. There were many of us who carried a 9mm round in the watch pocket for just that purpose.
Go ask Rudi Salvermoser.
The above held especially true for SS panzer types.
Quaere, counsellor: Why so somber?
"Move, you ^77&%#4@0(*! You wanna live forever?" - Primus sergentus in the VIIth Roman Legion.
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Tom Houlihan
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Suicide
Annelie, as we sit in our peacetime homes, warm and dry, it is easy to feel that "where there is life, there is hope." I have read recounts of those who were unwilling guests of the "Glorious Red Army," and I don't know how I would have handled the situation myself. What makes it worse, though is when you read of Soviet troops who were captured by the Germans. When they were liberated, many of them chose suicide over a return to the SU. If Stalin' own people would "rather be dead than Red," is it any wonder so many Germans took their own lives?
Tom:
I have read many accounts on how POW's faired with Russians.
Yes, I really do believe death would be easier but, don't you see
that it takes a lot of "courage" in those circumstances to chose life over death?
Well I know about General Vlaslov and his men.
I know well about the many suicides rather than being sent back.
But, I just viewed an interview with an Polish resistance fighter and his
comrades some of whom were captured by the Russians but today
he lives.
I have read many accounts on how POW's faired with Russians.
Yes, I really do believe death would be easier but, don't you see
that it takes a lot of "courage" in those circumstances to chose life over death?
Well I know about General Vlaslov and his men.
I know well about the many suicides rather than being sent back.
But, I just viewed an interview with an Polish resistance fighter and his
comrades some of whom were captured by the Russians but today
he lives.
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Jason Pipes
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During WWII there was a strong notion that it was more honerable for a soldier, especially a high ranking officer, to kill himself rather than being captured. Hitler expected Paulus to take his own life when he made him a field marshall during the last days in Stalingrad, as no German field marshall had ever been taken alive before. Of course, Paulus didn't and became the first to be captured, but all the others I'm aware of, did.
In fact, aside from those who killed themselves as a result of the July 20th plot (four did, including Rommel) 78 high ranking officers took their own lives during or directly after WWII. Of these 78, 40 were from the Heer, 9 from the Luftwaffe, 2 from the Kriegsmarine, and 27 from the SS or Police.
In fact, aside from those who killed themselves as a result of the July 20th plot (four did, including Rommel) 78 high ranking officers took their own lives during or directly after WWII. Of these 78, 40 were from the Heer, 9 from the Luftwaffe, 2 from the Kriegsmarine, and 27 from the SS or Police.
Personally, I would choose to go down in a hail of bullets, but that option may not always be available.
I can think of one example (providing of course that it actually happened) where suicide was definately the best option and that would be in the case of the resistance members who knocked off Reinhard Heidrich when they chose to take their own lives instead of capture, torture and eventually death.
We, as for the most part armchair warriors (excluding the likes of Joscha, Rudi and others) will scratch our heads as to why people would choose death but as a suicide counsellor I can tell you that it can be all too easy for people to travel down the path to voluntary death in peacetime, let alone during war.
The endless reminders of the hopelessness and futility of the task before him will wear a man down to the point where he no longer cares and more importantly, no longer values his own life and sees his demise as a chance to escape his sense of loss.
When a person is on the brink, he can be bought back, providing someone is there to notice and cares enough to try, but on the Eastern front, I would wager that there were many occasions when men would be alone with their thoughts and that is when they would be at their most vulnerable.
The mind of a person contemplating suicide does not work like yours and mine and if the conditions are right, the decision to complete suicide can be a very easy one.
Regards
I can think of one example (providing of course that it actually happened) where suicide was definately the best option and that would be in the case of the resistance members who knocked off Reinhard Heidrich when they chose to take their own lives instead of capture, torture and eventually death.
We, as for the most part armchair warriors (excluding the likes of Joscha, Rudi and others) will scratch our heads as to why people would choose death but as a suicide counsellor I can tell you that it can be all too easy for people to travel down the path to voluntary death in peacetime, let alone during war.
The endless reminders of the hopelessness and futility of the task before him will wear a man down to the point where he no longer cares and more importantly, no longer values his own life and sees his demise as a chance to escape his sense of loss.
When a person is on the brink, he can be bought back, providing someone is there to notice and cares enough to try, but on the Eastern front, I would wager that there were many occasions when men would be alone with their thoughts and that is when they would be at their most vulnerable.
The mind of a person contemplating suicide does not work like yours and mine and if the conditions are right, the decision to complete suicide can be a very easy one.
Regards
HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE FASTEST RUNNER!
pow
Honour may have been fine for the officiers,but there was a real resistance ( fear ) to being taken prisoner. This may haved stemmed from propoganda. As it was my father was unabel to stop two soldiers from blowing themselves up with a handgrenade in Saporosche. In Stalingrad General Hartmann (71st) stood up and fired his weapon and was cut down by enemy fire. General Stempel (371st) that same day shot himself in the head after saying good bye to his son,who tried to escape from Stalingrad.
In the camps there were cases of suicide and attempted suicide( punished by solitary confinement and no rations)
In the camps there were cases of suicide and attempted suicide( punished by solitary confinement and no rations)
Well I can agree with several posters here but as a child of an German father and Uncle I am very happy that they did not take this path.
Although I am not sure if their circumstances would have even made
them think this way.
I was even thinking about those civilians in Berlin when the Russians invaded the city.......yes, suicide is a very fine line even today.
Annelie
Although I am not sure if their circumstances would have even made
them think this way.
I was even thinking about those civilians in Berlin when the Russians invaded the city.......yes, suicide is a very fine line even today.
Annelie
suicide
I dont think anyone is advocating suicide as opposed to toughing it out.
However there is reality.
Craig wrote,"When a person is on the brink, he can be bought back, providing someone is there to notice and cares enough to try, but on the Eastern front"
When the war began and the Wehrmacht was successful everything was roses, but when the eastern front slowed down to a stalemate the attitudes began to change. The new replacements to the front were scared to death, My father recalls guys standing in trenches pissing themselves, the old veterans however became resigned. They were tired of the daily struggle and their favorite phase was "if I'm killed I can watch the potatoes grow from the other side."
In the POW camps men just gave up the will to live. They were so destroyed they just went to sleep and never woke up. My father witness this several times, no fanfare or threats of doing oneself in, but you could see the signs days before.
The Russians were trying to prevent this latr on. One rather ill soldier was taken to the Lazeret, too ill to eat, he refused food, he wanted to breathe his last.
The Nurse/doctor in charge of him finally Force-fed him a generous shot of vodka( didnt have intravenous).Daily he got his shot of vodka until after a few days he was looking forward to his next shot. He started eating again and recovered. Truly he was brought back from the brink.
However there is reality.
Craig wrote,"When a person is on the brink, he can be bought back, providing someone is there to notice and cares enough to try, but on the Eastern front"
When the war began and the Wehrmacht was successful everything was roses, but when the eastern front slowed down to a stalemate the attitudes began to change. The new replacements to the front were scared to death, My father recalls guys standing in trenches pissing themselves, the old veterans however became resigned. They were tired of the daily struggle and their favorite phase was "if I'm killed I can watch the potatoes grow from the other side."
In the POW camps men just gave up the will to live. They were so destroyed they just went to sleep and never woke up. My father witness this several times, no fanfare or threats of doing oneself in, but you could see the signs days before.
The Russians were trying to prevent this latr on. One rather ill soldier was taken to the Lazeret, too ill to eat, he refused food, he wanted to breathe his last.
The Nurse/doctor in charge of him finally Force-fed him a generous shot of vodka( didnt have intravenous).Daily he got his shot of vodka until after a few days he was looking forward to his next shot. He started eating again and recovered. Truly he was brought back from the brink.
Bruno:
Thankyou for the input. You are indeed fortunate that your father
shared from the sounds a great many things with you and so your
understanding would be far more than myself.
Yes, I know about the will to live. My father lost his will.
I can well understand being so tired of everything that you just
don't care anymore..
I hope your father is well and happy.....and I am envious that you shared so much.
Annelie
Thankyou for the input. You are indeed fortunate that your father
shared from the sounds a great many things with you and so your
understanding would be far more than myself.
Yes, I know about the will to live. My father lost his will.
I can well understand being so tired of everything that you just
don't care anymore..
I hope your father is well and happy.....and I am envious that you shared so much.
Annelie
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Sebastian Pye
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ChronicMasterbator
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All replies in this thread mention the circumstances in Russia as if they were very evil compared to the situation of POW's held in other coutries. Well, that is not true at all. Are we victims of the western propaganda sometimes or did you ever heard about the Swedish sin regarding POW's as example?
Why suicide as solution? The "Declaration of the Captured Lutheran Pastors in Egypt" gives a good insight.
Why suicide as solution? The "Declaration of the Captured Lutheran Pastors in Egypt" gives a good insight.
