I am proud to be a American

[Locke]

Well, let me put my 2 cents in this discussion.
I can say that I understand 2SS Panzer to some extent ... my brother had the same kind of problems too, but we managed to convince him everything isn't just black&white (BTW, my brother is 15 too and he still wants to join the Army).

Now, how can you hate people who you actually don't know?

It's really a problem if you're going to fight a war and you won't be able to understand the mentality of those people. This has proven a problem in Bosnia already ... I won't start discussing Bosnia -- I was there in summer - just for 2 weeks as a volunteer worker and it was a very interesting and shocking experience (an anti tank mine 500 metres from the place where we worked, mines all around, ...). I think you would need some experience of the kind too.
Don't believe everything you see on TV and be good :)

Merry Christmas to all of you!
Polona

[AH]

Well, let me put my 2 cents in this discussion.
I can say that I understand 2SS Panzer to some extent ... my brother had the same kind of problems too, but we managed to convince him everything isn't just black&white (BTW, my brother is 15 too and he still wants to join the Army).

Now, how can you hate people who you actually don't know?

It's really a problem if you're going to fight a war and you won't be able to understand the mentality of those people. This has proven a problem in Bosnia already ... I won't start discussing Bosnia -- I was there in summer - just for 2 weeks as a volunteer worker and it was a very interesting and shocking experience (an anti tank mine 500 metres from the place where we worked, mines all around, ...). I think you would need some experience of the kind too.
Don't believe everything you see on TV and be good :)

Merry Christmas to all of you!
Polona

Excactly my point.

[2nd SS Panzer Das Reich]

Considering your quote shown above, why did you choose as your nickname for this forum 2nd SS Panzer Das Reich, and not Patton's Army, or The Marines of Saipan, or General Lee ?

I have a intrest in the Wehrmacht.

[2nd SS Panzer Das Reich]

And in doing so you become a cause of the next 9/11.

And how is that?

[Uli]

As an American I'm caught between a rock (in loosely supporting Israel) and a hard place (in defending largely defenseless Arabs). I don't like to see the wholesale slaughter of the many innocent among the Iraqis, nor do I like to see our Marines sent on every mission coming down the pike.

As it is, many of my countrymen are overfed, insufferably egotistical, and unabashedly infantile, but the lion's share of us are simply ordinary world citizens trying to live peaceably in an increasingly volatile world. Is my country doing the right thing in Iraq? I don't yet know.

I do know that many of you are bantering with a kid who's light-years young, and it's a little surprising to see you so prostrate by his words. He's just a kid. He'll grow into the world as we all do. When I was his age--18?--I was at Khe Sanh, drooling away my time, feverishly hoping that the North Vietnamese Army would come across the wire just as soon as was possible. Couldn't wait to kill someone.

Now I sit back in old age, drink ice-cold German brew, and hope like hell that no one's left alive who remembers my childlike ignorance and stupidity of those 'war years.'

He's just a boy, fellows.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Uli,

I have never understood American support for Israel.

Israel is sometimes advanced as "the only democracy in the Middle East". But it achieved this by expelling and/or refusing the return of the Palestinian Arabs who were likely to form the opposition, or even a majority, of the electorate. It is as if in 1948 in the US the Democrats had expelled two-thirds of Republican voters. I bet the Democrats could run a "demcracy" for the next sixty years if they had exiled most Republicans.

And Israel doesn't seem much of a "melting pot" on the American model. Only professing Jews can settle there.

And what use is Israel to the US when it needs military allies in the Middle East? Israeli forces have been unusable in Somalia, Iraq, Aghanistan.....

I can see why Israel needs America, but I cannot see why America needs Israel. Israel does not uphold American values and it is not materially useful to the US.

What is this slavish adherence to Israel all about? 9/11 was clearly one consequence, so one would think that this question would be at the forefront of US foreign policy debate.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Uli]

Hi Sid:

It's very difficult to answer your question.

In the U.S. any mention of Israel almost always comes with the tacit understanding that one is to tread lightly in any case. It's difficult to put one's finger on, but most Americans won't even discuss Israel without first fearing they'll somehow be labeled as anti-semitic. Even the mildest criticism of that country's policies has toppled some of our highest politicians. George Bush Sr., left office in 1991, incidentally, after promising to punish Israel by withholding some 15 billion in loan guarantees. Bush had been angered by the brutality exhibited by Jewish West Bank settlers after a two-year spree which saw these Uzi-toting settlers muscling in on Palestinian land with the help of Israeli government bulldozers and regular soldiers.

I suppose that most of us are guided by the idea of--I think you and Reb touched on this somewhere--'premillenial dispensationalism,' or simply, the concept of 'dispensationalism.' Put all too simply, Americans believe we're directed by biblical dictate to uphold Israel. Our leading ministers openly tell us so. And yet Americans are absolutely stunned when our 'ally' abitrarily fires on one of our naval vessels, kills a few of our sailors, or covertly sells military hardware to China. If I were to say that there is massive Jewish-Israeli influence at work in the U.S.--as you rightly noted, NYC holds the largest concentration of Jews in any city--I would want to be careful, to tread lightly.

I doubt most Europeans grasp it, but Americans are sharply torn between their support for Israel and their traditional kinship with the 'Old World.' Twenty years ago we argued vehemently over whether or not President Reagan should visit German war graves during the 40th anniversary of D-Day. Millions were angered when told (once more by Jewish groups) that such a visit would lend some sort of legitimacy to organizations such as the Waffen-SS. American veterans who highly respect their former enemies argued, "It's been forty years? Are we to hold them accountable forever?" In the end, Reagan visited the graves and most Americans seemed to agree with his gesture.

Europeans on this board should know that, while we are concerned for our international safety (and yours, too), Americans are also deeply concerned with particularly shaky relations with our longtime western allies. As I say, we don't talk much about this openly, but rest assured millions do so privately.

I suspect that both Israeli and international Jewish leaders would love to keep the U.S. exactly where it is today. Surely only they are benefiting from any of the debacle currently playing out along the Tigris-Euphrates.

Sorry for the ramshackle response, Sid: My wife is beseeching me to start the car. We're leaving now for Christmas vacation.

Allow me to wish all on this board the finest in holidays. Perhaps soon we can brook the divide which has recently taken place between our nations.

[2nd SS Panzer Das Reich]

How much do you know about the rest of the world? What did you see outside the American borders?
.

I have never left America and I don't think I would ever want to, unless to serve America

[Florin]

How much do you know about the rest of the world? What did you see outside the American borders?
.

I have never left America and I don't think I would ever want to, unless to serve America.

This leads to a question...

What is the difference between the average American enjoying his / her ignorance regarding everything beyond the U.S. borders, and the average Japanese during the Shogunate period (until 1860), convinced that the Japanese are the chosen nation of the Gods, and everybody else are savages?

[Herr Doktor]

SS Panzer wrote:

I have never left America and I don't think I would ever want to, unless to serve America

A pity that in a few short years, you will be making decisions about the direction of your life based on such faulty reasoning. Nothing personal, my friend. A long time ago I was exactly the same way.

Oh well...

HD

[mikerock]

And in doing so you become a cause of the next 9/11.

And how is that?

By shooting people and making thier families hate America even more - creating more people opposed to the US and it's goals.

Killing people doesn't solve problems, it creates them.

[Vpatrick]

Americas support for Isreal may be because of the jewish population influence in the U.S. Which might be true but I think it is politically sold because of American love for the underdog. Isreal is a country surrounded by Millions Arab enemies.

You can say what you want but it is a fact that (some) Muslims are in the same historical mindset as Christian Murdering crusaders. Their main motivation is hatred, not knowledge, not self improvement, but killing anyone who thinks differently.

While the US and the west may need a better P.R. campaign, can a liberal or european expalin why we would support a country that is detested by our oil suppling Arabs? This world is complex someone who has all the answers has my vote for world leader.

[awaygood]

As much as many of us admire the United States, I think that much of the world is heartily bored with being lectured-to about 'democracy' -the USA being no more democratic than any European country, or Canada, or Australia, or New Zealand... etc. On a radio chat-show, broadcast from Seattle, I actually heard a listener call in to say how wonderful it was... "to live in the only country in the world, where we can criticise our government"! Thank God most Americans aren't that stupid!
And as for its 'war on terrorism' -where was that 'war' when, for example, the IRA was openly collecting funds in, and buying weapons from, the USA?

[Vpatrick]

Being of Irish decent I see the complexity and know more than you about this issue (Money and Arms were supplied by Boston Irish without the Governments knowledge and is illegal) and it was Bill Clinton who brokered the peace in Ireland which is still going on today. People in N. Ireland are starting to live thier lives, watch thier kids grow save for retirement, not assinated at thier own dinner table because they are different in religion.

I noticed you did not mention Arab states as " democratic", The only Muslim country in history the US invaded was Iraq and Afganistan, We dont want thier oil or lands we want our troops back and want democracy whats wrong with that. If islamic extremists did not knock down our buildings and kill men and women trying too feed thier kids it would not have happened. American Policy towards the Mid East may be wrong but to inspire war for our own saftey is easily sold to Americans for the most part.

Lastly Americans are tired of the world not liking us (we are starting not too care)when the world needs us to act for humanitarian reasons we are center stage but after that assholes. thierir will be a time when the world begs America for help, we will say ask the Germans, French, Chinise, Russians, they know how the world should be, see how fast they help.

[awaygood]

While most Arab states are not 'democratic' in the sense that western countries are democratic, many Arab countries -particularly the Gulf States- have very liberal governments and are perfectly content with their governments. For example, I have worked in the Oman, Bahrain, and in the United Arab Emirates; these countries have outstandingly-able unelected leaders (look at Dubai, for example, which is fast-becoming a world-class tourist destination) who are genuinely loved by their respective populations, and who have created high standards of living for their citizens and expatriates. In these countries the level of crime -particularly violent crime- is low (and not because they cut criminals' hands off -but because that's the nature of the people), and they are liberal to their expatriate work force (for example, alcohol and pork are readily available, and there are many Christian and other churches and places of worship). These countries are perfectly content with their traditional way of government, and who are we to criticise them for that? We should certainly not try and force western democracy on them for, quite rightly, the populations would resent it. Western-style democracy is fine for us in the west, but is not what these countries want -so, let's live and let live and stop telling everyone how wonderful our system is!