war crimes

[sid guttridge]

Hi TYR,

Yup. Let's not forget how many Germans died of illness or starvation in Western prison camps. But also, let's not exaggerate that number. I think the death rate in American hands was 0.22%. In British hands it was marginally less.

As long as there were still crimes for which no prosecution was brought (and that is the overwhelming majority) then it is impossible to argue convincingly that too many war crimes trials were held.

Why should the Allies have been kind hearted and forgiving when pursuing men who had brought death to tens of millions of their citizens?

I guess that if it is better that less is said about the deaths of German POWs in Soviet hands, then it must be even better if even less is said about the higher mortality rates of Soviet prisoners of war in German hands in 1941. Wouldn't you agree?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Achilles]

As the British retreat in some areas turned into a rout, certain units turned to using dum-dum bullets against advancing German troops. They had also been ordered not to take any prisoners except for interrogation. Such expanding bullets inflict horrific wounds and are strictly banned under the Geneva Convention to which Britain was a signatory. Anyone who disregards Convention does of course put themselves outside its protection. Such was the case with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment. This Regiment excelled itself when it came to brutality and disregarded both the 'Rules of Land Warfare' and the Geneva Convention. It was not their policy to take prisoners and Waffen SS units were well aware of the atrocities committed against civilians and German troops by the Royals. Their behaviour so infuriated one SS unit that it retaliated by shooting a number of captured members of the Warwickshire Regiment.
At the end of the war any known SS survivors from this unit were hunted down by the British, tried as war criminals, and promptly executed. But the British had themselves provoked German retaliation by their violation of rules governing the conduct of war. Once again British double standards prevailed. As always only half the truth is told but when the full truth emerges those condemned stand vindicated.

Odd. In every account I've read - even those by SS apologists - have never mentined any of this. Can you direct us to the source? Where were the executions of soldiers? There is a work detailing official German investigations into war crimes committed by the Allies in 1940. I can't remember reading any that were committed by the Royal Warwickshires.

Your claim that 'any known SS survivors from this unit were hunted down by the British, tried as war criminals, and promptly executed' is I'm afraid an utter lie. Although a case was raised against Wilhlem Mohnke he was never charged and lived out his life in peace.

So then what about Le Paradis? Were the Royal Norfolks also gunning down Germans and German looking Frenchmen? What about the civilians executed by Totenkopf in the few days before? The executed in Pont-du-Gy? The 98 in Aubigny? Or the 45 at Vandelicourt?

[Michael Miller / ABR]

gerhard wrote

"You will likely say this was the exception but you would be wrong. That is how my comrades, first with the 2nd Division and later with the Nordhausen Division conducted ourselves."

"Nordhausen Division"??!!??


~ Mike

[gerhard2]

Achilles
Give me a break, I did not claim anything I merely copied and pasted that article by Major General Robert W. Grow. I also said I found this on the Internet and certainly was not there.
About the rest of your post, I have no knowledge of the happenings you speak in fact I have no opinion about them. But I remember you from a few previous discussions about Dresden and my Good-Will visit with a 88 batterie to Russia. We never were able to read from the same page then and I do not expect anything different now.
Mike:
From the Waffen SS Order of Battle Website.
Perhaps one of the most unique Waffen-SS units of the entire war, -Werfer Batterie 500 was a mobile launching unit for the V2 rocket program. It was the only Wafffen-SS unit of the 8 battery rocket launcher division Nordhausen under SS -Gruppenführer Kammler.
Does this help ?
Sid:
I am not worried about my credibility in what you call defending Joscha. A couple of posts among others stick in my mind, one about the Hitler Jugend and the other about Dresden (my home town) and I find it hard to think that he got this from a book.
Besides I fail to see the benefit claiming to be a German veteran. In my case I had many messages calling me a liar, Nazi, SS apologist just to mention a few. Just think if he is what he said, at his age (must be around 85), not nice to be called some of those names.
Cheers,
Gerhard

[TYR]

Hi TYR,

Yup. Let's not forget how many Germans died of illness or starvation in Western prison camps. But also, let's not exaggerate that number. I think the death rate in American hands was 0.22%. In British hands it was marginally less.

As long as there were still crimes for which no prosecution was brought (and that is the overwhelming majority) then it is impossible to argue convincingly that too many war crimes trials were held.

Why should the Allies have been kind hearted and forgiving when pursuing men who had brought death to tens of millions of their citizens?

I guess that if it is better that less is said about the deaths of German POWs in Soviet hands, then it must be even better if even less is said about the higher mortality rates of Soviet prisoners of war in German hands in 1941. Wouldn't you agree?

Cheers,

Sid.

Hi Sid;
Once again, well put.
All in all a dirty war,where all horror was committed (when is war not horrible)by those proclaiming "my cause is just".Reads like todays' headline, doesn't it?
Best Wishes,
TYR

[Michael Miller / ABR]

gerhard~

May I inquire as to your final rank and other particulars of your Waffen-SS service?

Best regards and thanks in advance,
~ Mike

[joefraser]

hi sid,
towards the end of the war the ss charlemange were relieved of their oaths by their c.o. many however chose to go to berlin and carry on the fight. some, i think 13, returned to france or were trying to. they surrendered to the americans. later some free french spotted them and gave them grief. they were asked why they were in german uniforms fighting for germany. one replied what is the difference between us in german uniform and you in american. general leclerc then had them executed. that is well documented and to me as bad a crime as any other. it was in cold blood not the heat of a battle. the american one was at a concentration camp. i could look it up. there are photos of the incedent, i think i first read of it in after the battle. the ss guards who surrendered were lined up and when their c.o. arrived massacred. i was scathing earlier about camp guards but was put in my place and told many were wounded rehabs. and not sadists as i had said. therefore that is a crime and nothing was or has been done about it.

[sid guttridge]

Hi joefraser,

Yup. Those are both incidents I have heard of and they should have gone through the due process of law.

That said, it should be remembered that it is the wearing of the uniform of the enemy that is illegal, not the wearing of uniforms supplied by allies and decorated with one's own national insignia. Thus the proposed equation between members of the W-SS Charlemagne Division and General Leclerc's forces is entirely spurious. If the facts as reported are true, the French SS men were liable for execution anyway, although this would not necessarily have been their fate if due process of law had been followed.

Why would it make any difference if SS concentration camp guards were wounded rehabs or not? Shooting them without due process is illegal. In fact, only a small percentage of the staff of Auschwitz were executed after due process, so it is unlikely that most of these concentration camp guards would have been condemned to death by law. Although the loss of self control by the Americans concerned is understandable in the circumstances, having had to step over the bodies of thousands of dead and dying emaciated concentration camp inmates, it is still wrong and should have been investigated. Was it?

(Besides, does not the presence of rehabilitating W-SS men in the concentration camp offer further evidence that there was no clear division between the Waffen-SS and the wider SS, and therefore tend to reinforce the justification for including the Waffen-SS in the condemnation of the wider condemnation of the entire SS as a criminal organisation?)

Finally, while either incident may be the culpable responsibility of Allied individuals, neither is evidence of the sort of institutional propensity displayed by the Waffen-SS to be involved in such incidents during every year of the war and in virtually every campaign in which it fought.

Cheers,

Sid.

[joefraser]

hi sid, am i wrong or did the foriegn waffen ss wear their countries' insignia on their uniform, making them just the same as the free french in american uniform. let's get my viewpoint straight i believe in justice for both sides and it didn't happen.

[gerhard2]

Mike,
Early 43 reported to Flak Ausbildungs- Ersatz Abteilung in Arolsen. After basic and gun training, 88s. Range finder was my spaciality. We went late 43 as replacements to the second Division somewhere West of Charkov. Charkov had just recently re-taken by Ivan. Stayed behind when most of the Division moved to Normandy. Some time in the Spring 44 after getting wounded was sent back to a hospital near Chemnitz and a little later returned to my Ausbildungs Abteilung. The doctor did not think me fit enough to go back to my batterie so I received dispatch rider training and joined Nordhausen Division and stayed with them till the very end. After not getting anymore rockets in March 45 our batterie/abteilung was re-equipped with 15 cm nebel werfers and ordered to join up with a panzer Division (which we could not find) and proceed to Berlin. We never got there, after using up our ammo we were ordered to return to our staging area. I don't think many, if any made it. The Spiess on the back of my motor bike and I managed to get back till a couple of day's later, the 8th or 9th of May we saw a Sherman 100 or so yards to the left of us and a T34 about the same distance to the right of us. That's when we knew the war was over.
Because I was the last dispatch rider left I was promoted to Rof sometime the end of April 45.
Never even got my second stripe, bar on or pay increase.
That's my 2 years of glorious war service topped off with 4 1/2 years as guest of the British army.

But did I ever get back at them, for several Month in 48 I was a cook in the cook house of a company of Royal Engineers near Aldershot, I am sure they still remember my Custard over Apricots (dried Apricots). I know the sargent major did after I brought his tea one morning and did not notice his dentures in his mug.

Heh Sid, I can prove this I still have a photograph of me in the cook house.
Gerhard

[Annelie]

I am sure they still remember my Custard over Apricots (dried Apricots). I know the sargent major did after I brought his tea one morning and did not notice his dentures in his mug.

Gerhard......LOLOLOLOL>......ROFL.
Yes, I bet the Sargent Major would have remembered this.

[sid guttridge]

Hi joefraser,

The American uniforms were supplied to French forces. The French did not receive the uniforms because they had enlisted in the American armed forces. They were not in service with a foreign power and took no oath of alleigance to that foreign power.

Foreign "volunteers" (many were actually conscripts) in the Waffen-SS were never German nationals and did take an oath of alleigance to that foreign power.

However, not all foreign nationals were in the same situation. France was an Allied power and so any of its nationals serving in German uniforms were patently traitors and therefore liable to execution. (The same is true of the handful of Britons who volunteered for the Waffen-SS. In Britain today, we have abolished the death penalty for everything except treason of this sort).

The situation of nationals of countries not in the Allied camp who volunteered for the Waffen-SS is another matter, as they were not serving in the armed forces of their country's enemy. It was probably illegal for them to do so, but was not treasonous and was not a capital offence.

Cheers,

Sid.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Gerhard,

I heard about this photo a couple of years ago from an American Feldgrau poster to whom you sent a copy. He said that he believed the photo was of you because a contemporary photo of you showed similar facial features. I haven't seen it, but it is one of several reasons why I tend to believe you are genuine.

Cheers,

Sid.

[gerhard2]

Annelie,
I am sure he remembers it and me, I certainly was a lot more careful after that episode and on that day acquired many English words I had not heard before.
I also found English sargent majors were just like our own, bad tempered and every one of them had good lungs .

This maybe a stupid question but what does ......LOLOLOLOL>......ROFL. mean ?

Gerhard

[Annelie]

Hi Gerhard,

LOL.....means laughing out loud

ROFL......means rolling on the floor laughing.

computer short form.