Sid, while appreciating your attempt to crack the ethnic problems of Eastern Europe, I would rather say pas. I am afraid I would have a problem if challenged by the admin what does this have to do with the German armed forces.sid guttridge wrote:If a purely ethno-linguistic standpoint is taken...
Why didn't the allies also declare war on Russia?
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pas
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sid guttridge
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Hi 4444,
I guess this entire thread has nothing to do directly with the Wehrmacht.
On the other hand, as Poland was the trip wire for war, and its ethnic composition was a key factor in the German case, I guess that the national composition has some relevance.
I had a look at the ethno-linguistic composition according to the Polish census of 1931 of the area occupied by the USSR in 1939. Apparently Poles made up only 38.5% of the population east of the River Bug.
I also had a look at the statistics in Steven Zaloga's book on the Polish Campaign, where he gives the ethnic composition of Polish divisions in peacetime. In the same areas of Easern Poland where Poles made up only 38.5% of the population, the twelve infantry divisions normally stationed in the area contained an average of 78% Poles. It does look as though the Poles did not consider these areas to be entirely reliable.
Cheers,
Sid.
I guess this entire thread has nothing to do directly with the Wehrmacht.
On the other hand, as Poland was the trip wire for war, and its ethnic composition was a key factor in the German case, I guess that the national composition has some relevance.
I had a look at the ethno-linguistic composition according to the Polish census of 1931 of the area occupied by the USSR in 1939. Apparently Poles made up only 38.5% of the population east of the River Bug.
I also had a look at the statistics in Steven Zaloga's book on the Polish Campaign, where he gives the ethnic composition of Polish divisions in peacetime. In the same areas of Easern Poland where Poles made up only 38.5% of the population, the twelve infantry divisions normally stationed in the area contained an average of 78% Poles. It does look as though the Poles did not consider these areas to be entirely reliable.
Cheers,
Sid.
I don't think that ethnic factor was reason of Soviet invasion in september 1939. If any post-soviet citizen read this forum, he may say that USSR under Stalin divide people not by nationality but class - workers, peasants, etc. So the slogans and agitation in occupied Poland (my grandma lived in Bialystok 1927 - 1958 ) was: We bring freedom from rich fabricants to poor workers. But later all Poles were moved to siberia and Kasachstan (this ethnic clansig was stoped in June 1941). The soviets asked people from captured Polish teritory about nationality. In 1942 Stalin and Sikorsky made agreement, that all citiziens of USSR with Polish citizienship can join to Polish army (gen. Anders). To this army joined not only Poles, but many Jews, which want escape from USSR (watch Monte Cassino military cementary, in Polish sector 1/4 graves has David star emblem).
So mayby free Poland left in this people's memory not so bad imagine.
At the end i think, that UK and France in winter 1939 still had hope, that USSR join them to destroy Germany, even sacrified Poland to Stalin. This is very popular point if view in Warsaw.
So mayby free Poland left in this people's memory not so bad imagine.
At the end i think, that UK and France in winter 1939 still had hope, that USSR join them to destroy Germany, even sacrified Poland to Stalin. This is very popular point if view in Warsaw.
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sid guttridge
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Hi Pirx,
I would agree that etnic considerations were not the reason for the Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland in September 1939. However, they were the declared pretext.
The Soviet Union was not without internal ethnic distinctions, which was why it was divided into ethnically based socialist republics. Two of these, the Ukraine and Byelorussia, had millions of people of their nationality in Eastern Poland and between them they outnumbered Poles east of the River Bug.
Molotov announced that the Red Army was moving into Eastern Poland in order to protect the area's Ukrainians and Byelorussians because the flight of the Polish government from its capital indicated a collapse of the Polish state.
As I state above, this was only a pretext. In practice ethnicity was irrelevant to Stalin, who happily absobed Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians and Romanians into the USSR at about the same time without any ethnic excuses.
Cheers,
Sid.
I would agree that etnic considerations were not the reason for the Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland in September 1939. However, they were the declared pretext.
The Soviet Union was not without internal ethnic distinctions, which was why it was divided into ethnically based socialist republics. Two of these, the Ukraine and Byelorussia, had millions of people of their nationality in Eastern Poland and between them they outnumbered Poles east of the River Bug.
Molotov announced that the Red Army was moving into Eastern Poland in order to protect the area's Ukrainians and Byelorussians because the flight of the Polish government from its capital indicated a collapse of the Polish state.
As I state above, this was only a pretext. In practice ethnicity was irrelevant to Stalin, who happily absobed Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians and Romanians into the USSR at about the same time without any ethnic excuses.
Cheers,
Sid.
national minorities in WWII armies
agree, this is an interesting topic, with some goodwill perhaps falling into the Feldgrau agenda: national minorities in WWII armies. Germans in the Italian army, Swedes in the Finnish army, Poles in the German army, Germans in the Belgian army, Germans in the Czech army, Ukrainians in the Hungarian army, Hungarians in the Romanian army, Germans, Belorussians and Ukrainians in the Polish army, Jews in most of the armies...sid guttridge wrote:In the same areas of Easern Poland where Poles made up only 38.5% of the population, the twelve infantry divisions normally stationed in the area contained an average of 78% Poles. It does look as though the Poles did not consider these areas to be entirely reliable
I agree with Sid.
"If you want hit a dog, you always find a bar."
Something about chronology:
Polish goverment move from Warsaw to Brest Litewski September 9th,
Then September 12th from Brest Litewski to Zelszczyki (Polish - Romanian border). Molotov gives declaration about "protection" of Ukrainians and Belorussians September 17th morning, Goverment crossed border September 17th afternoon.
The rest is all right.
By the way. In polish schools to 1990 we were teached that "Polish workers, peasants and democratic inteligentsya cheers and welcome Red Army, which liberate us from Polish fabricants and land Lords". What about that!
"If you want hit a dog, you always find a bar."
Something about chronology:
Polish goverment move from Warsaw to Brest Litewski September 9th,
Then September 12th from Brest Litewski to Zelszczyki (Polish - Romanian border). Molotov gives declaration about "protection" of Ukrainians and Belorussians September 17th morning, Goverment crossed border September 17th afternoon.
The rest is all right.
By the way. In polish schools to 1990 we were teached that "Polish workers, peasants and democratic inteligentsya cheers and welcome Red Army, which liberate us from Polish fabricants and land Lords". What about that!
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sid guttridge
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Hi Sid.
I agree that Polish comunists, or some miniorities welcome Red Army. Each hostile army is welcome by some kind of people. But the same Polish workers, peasants and democratic inteligentsya stopped Red Army in 1920, and didn't welkome mr Budionny, Tukhachevsky or Molotov who used to say "Poland is a bastard of Versaille conference" and "Over dead body of white Poland we carry revolution to europe".
I don't think that Poles could believe Russians after this friendly words.
And Poles knows that pact Ribbentrop - Molotov was signed, however some protocols were secret.
I agree that Polish comunists, or some miniorities welcome Red Army. Each hostile army is welcome by some kind of people. But the same Polish workers, peasants and democratic inteligentsya stopped Red Army in 1920, and didn't welkome mr Budionny, Tukhachevsky or Molotov who used to say "Poland is a bastard of Versaille conference" and "Over dead body of white Poland we carry revolution to europe".
I don't think that Poles could believe Russians after this friendly words.
And Poles knows that pact Ribbentrop - Molotov was signed, however some protocols were secret.
