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Re: kursk
Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:24 pm
by nebelwerferXXX
ljadw wrote:following "Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg" Bnd 8 P91,the tankstrength of AGS (operational numbers) was:
Pz III 409
Pz IV 426
Pz V 200
Pz VI 1O2
SG 240
Total German tanks before the battle was 2,700 tanks. It defends on what book were you reading. Its confusing already.
Re: kursk
Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:44 pm
by ljadw
The figures I have given ,are taken from the German archives(BA-MA)
I don't dispute the total tank number .
German tank strenght per division (on 1 july)
5PD: Pz III 17 PzIV 76 BefehlPz 9
8 Pz:Pz II 14 Pz III(short gun)25 PzIII(long gun) 34 Pz IV(short gun)8 PzIV(long gun)14 BefehlPz 6
185 SG Abt :36 SG
189 SG Abt:36 SG
18 PD:Pz II 5 PzIII(short gun)10 PZIII(long gun) 20 PZIV (short gun)5 PzIV (long gun) 29 BefPz 3
653 Panzerjaeger Abt:55 SG
654 PJ Abt:55(?) SG
177 SG Abt:36 SG
244 SG Abt:36 SG
216 (Schwere) Panzer Abt :45 SG
21 Panzer Brigade :PzIII(short gun):8 PzIII(lon gun) :7 Pz VI :31 SG 46
20 PD:Pz II :9 Pz III (short gun) 2 PzIII (long gun)15 PzIV(short gun) 9 PzIV(long gun) 40 BefPz 7
9PD:PzII 1 PzIII(short gun) 8 Pz III(long gun ) 30 PzIV (short gun) 8 PzIV(long gun) 30 Bef Pz:6
2PD: PzII 12 PzIII(short) 8 Pz III(long) 32 Pz IV (short) 1 Pz IV(long) 59 BefPz 6
254 SG Abt:36 SG
904 SG Abt:36 SG
312 Pz Company:22 SG
4 PD:PzIII(long) 15 PzIV (short) 1 PzIV(long) 79 BefPz 6
12PD:Pz II 6 PzIII(short) 15 PzIII (long) 21 PzIV (short)1 PzIV(long) 36 BefPz IV
AGS will follow
Re: kursk
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:49 am
by nebelwerferXXX
ljadw wrote:The figures I have given, are taken from the German archives (BA-MA)
I don't dispute the total tank number.
German tank strength per division (on 1 July)
5 PD: Pz III 17, Pz IV 76, Bef Pz 9
8 PD: Pz II 14, Pz III (short gun) 25, Pz III (long gun) 34, Pz IV (short gun) 8, Pz IV (long gun) 14, Bef Pz 6
185 SG Abt: 36 SG
189 SG Abt: 36 SG
18 PD: Pz II 5, Pz III (short gun) 10, Pz III (long gun) 20, Pz IV (short gun) 5, Pz IV (long gun) 29, Bef Pz 3
653 Panzerjager Abt: 55 SG
654 Panzerjager Abt: 55(?) SG
177 SG Abt: 36 SG
244 SG Abt: 36 SG
216 (Schwere) Panzer Abt: 45 SG
21 Panzer Brigade: Pz III (short gun) 8, Pz III (long gun) 7, Pz VI 31, SG 46
20 PD: Pz II 9, Pz III (short gun) 2, Pz III (long gun) 15, Pz IV (short gun) 9, Pz IV (long gun) 40, Bef Pz 7
9 PD: Pz II 1, Pz III (short gun) 8, Pz III (long gun ) 30, Pz IV (short gun) 8, Pz IV (long gun) 30, Bef Pz 6
2 PD: Pz II 12, Pz III (short gun) 8, Pz III (long gun) 32, Pz IV (short gun) 1, Pz IV (long gun) 59, Bef Pz 6
254 SG Abt: 36 SG
904 SG Abt: 36 SG
312 Pz Company: 22 SG
4 PD: Pz III (long gun) 15, Pz IV (short gun) 1, Pz IV (long gun) 79, Bef Pz 6
12 PD: Pz II 6, Pz III (short gun) 15, Pz III (long gun) 21, Pz IV (short gun) 1, Pz IV (long) 36, Bef Pz 4
AGS will follow
How about the number of APCs?
How about the number of Army trucks & Jeeps?
How about the number of MP 43 assault rifles?
Thank you in advance...Keep in touch.
Re: kursk
Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:12 am
by ljadw
operational tank strenght on 4 july for AGS
LSSAH
PzII 4
PzIII(long) 11
PzIV(long) 79
PzVI 12
BefPz 9
SG 34
Das Reich
PzIII(short) 1
PzIII(long) 47
PzIV (long) 30
PZVI 12
T 34 18
BefPz 8
SG 33
Totenkopf
Pz III(long)59
PzIV (short)5
PzIV(long)42
PzVI 11
BefPz VIII
SG 28
3PD
PzIII(short) 3
PzIII(long)27
PzIV (short) 17
PzIV(long)21
SG 2
11PD
PzIII(short)8
PzIII(long)42
PzIV(long)22
BefPz 8
SG 22
GD
PzIII(short)2
PzIII(long) 20
PzIV(short)7
PzIV(long)55
PzVI 14
BefPz 14
SG 34
51PzAbt 104 PzV
52 PzAbt 100 Pz V
911 SGAbt SG 31
905 SGAbt SG 25
393 SG Abt SG 25
6 PD (estimation!) :124 Pz - SG?
11PD(est) 1O3 PZ-SG ?
19 PD (est) 82 Pz -SG?
503 PzAbt 48 Pz VI
228SG Abt 25 SG
Sources:Angel Fire :Strength and losses .
Re: kursk
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:09 pm
by nebelwerferXXX
ljadw wrote:Operational Tank Strength on 4 July for AGS
LSSAH
Pz II 4
Pz III (long) 11
Pz IV (long) 79
Pz VI 12
Bef Pz 9
SG 34
Das Reich
Pz III (short) 1
Pz III (long) 47
Pz IV (long) 30
PZ VI 12
T 34 18
Bef Pz 8
SG 33
Totenkopf
Pz III (long) 59
Pz IV (short) 5
Pz IV (long) 42
Pz VI 11
Bef Pz VIII
SG 28
3PD
Pz III (short) 3
Pz III (long) 27
Pz IV (short) 17
Pz IV (long) 21
SG 2
11PD
Pz III (short) 8
Pz III (long) 42
Pz IV (long) 22
Bef Pz 8
SG 22
GD
Pz III (short) 2
Pz III (long) 20
Pz IV (short) 7
Pz IV (long) 55
Pz VI 14
Bef Pz 14
SG 34
51 Pz Abt 104 Pz V
52 Pz Abt 100 Pz V
911 SG Abt SG 31
905 SG Abt SG 25
393 SG Abt SG 25
6 PD (estimation!):124 Pz -SG ?
11 PD (est) 1O3 PZ-SG ?
19 PD (est) 82 Pz-SG ?
503 Pz Abt 48 Pz VI
228 SG Abt 25 SG
Sources:Angel Fire :Strength and losses .
So, the Final line-up for Citadel were: for the Wehrmacht
900,000 troops (of which 570,000 are combat troops)
2,700 tanks & assault guns
10,000 guns & mortars
2,500 aircraft
6,000 Panzerfaust
MP 43 assault rifles (?)
'Goliath' demolition tanks (?)
'Foot-Stuka' APCs (?)
'Nebelwerfer' rocket-mortars (?)
Re: kursk
Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:26 pm
by paul_atrydes
Interestigly, why usually is not counting Panzerjaegers (Marder etc.)?
Re: kursk
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:05 am
by Jan-Hendrik
Because they are counted as Selfpropelled guns?
![:[]](./images/smilies/icon_study.gif "Study")
Jan-Hendrik
Re: kursk
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:41 am
by ljadw
the Luftwaffe strenght is MUCH to high (higher than the strenght for the whole east front):
VIII Fliegerkorps :Ist-starke :923,operational :732
1Fliegerdivision :Ist-starke:819,operational :640
Hungarian airforce :45,operational :41
Re: kursk
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:01 am
by paul_atrydes
Jan-Hendrik wrote:Because they are counted as Selfpropelled guns?
Jan-Hendrik
So what? On Soviet side this type of vehicles is counting.
Re: kursk
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:04 am
by paul_atrydes
ljadw wrote:the Luftwaffe strenght is MUCH to high
Do you know number of LW personell?
Re: kursk
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:13 am
by ljadw
sadly enough,not:Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg only is giving (detailed) figures of aircraft strenght .
Re: kursk
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:41 am
by Jan-Hendrik
paul_atrydes wrote:Jan-Hendrik wrote:Because they are counted as Selfpropelled guns?
Jan-Hendrik
So what? On Soviet side this type of vehicles is counting.
Because of the the german designational system? In German Zustandsberichte they appear in the column "Pak (Sf)"
And german reports did not care how soviet side would count that
Jan-Hendrik
Re: kursk
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:17 pm
by nebelwerferXXX
The largest concentration of armor given to a German general.
4th Panzer Army (Hoth)
3rd Pz Div
Gross Deutschland Div
11th Pz Div
SS Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler
SS Das Reich
SS Totenkopf
6th Pz Div
19th Pz Div
7th Pz Div
1,000 tanks
350 assault guns
Re: kursk
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:54 pm
by paul_atrydes
Jan-Hendrik wrote:Because of the the german designational system? In German Zustandsberichte they appear in the column "Pak (Sf)"
I told about historical researches.
Re: kursk
Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:31 pm
by Jan-Hendrik
Whats your problem wit the term selfpropelled gun or Pak(Selbstfahrlette)?
Jan-Hendrik