Trigger happy US cowboys - or worse?

[Beppo Schmidt]

I think I speak for most of the forum, when I say THANK YOU.

[Christian]

Interesting article in Corriere Della Serra:

http://www.corriere.it/english/editoria ... 0305.shtml

Thought that some of you might be interested.

Christian

[Einsamer_Wolf]

I think I speak for most of the forum, when I say THANK YOU.

Welly well well--Stefan is gone. I will miss 1871, however. Sometimes his logic was a little opaque. But he was on the right-wing team. C is for Cookie, and that is good enough for me.

EW

[Beppo Schmidt]

I understand you are friends with him, but I don't think he will be widely missed, he contributed absolutely nothing to the forum except condescending insults, and besides he came back once after being banned, so I wouldn't be surprised if he does again.

[gerhard2]

Jason,
I see Stefan and 1871 is banned. Maybe their views/posts are a little extreme and are themselves a bit intolerant of other posters opinion, but SO WHAT ?
Now when it applies to my comrades and myself we are fair game to anyone (including Stefan) and no matter what I tried to say in my posts it was construed as excuses, lies, exaggeration or omissions. No matter how insulting some posters reply's were, it was politically correct and therefore OK.
Here is my take on this subject, it likely will get me banned too but here goes:
During the 1946 Allied tribunals in Nuremberg it was ruled that states no longer had the unfettered right to invade other countries and that leaders who started such conflicts would be held responsible and tried for waging illegal war.
What has happened and is still happening in Iraq right now ?
Due to US intervention, Iraq has become a land of deprivation, death and degradation.
The New York Times has reported actions taken by U.S. forces in Fallujah, which appear to be prima facie evidence of war crimes, without mentioning that the actions constitute clear violations of the Laws of Land War found in The U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10. For example, a Nov. 20 Times article, with two correspondents in Fallujah, reports that U.S. Marines had transformed a mosque into a fortress with snipers and machine gunners perched on the roof.
A report in the Los Angeles Times is describing the city of Fallujah as "a tableau of destroyed buildings, burned-out cars, battered mosques and piles of rubble". No building was sacrosanct including hospitals and clinics.
The Marine commander in Fallujah, Lieutenant General John Sattler, said his men followed the law of conflict and held themselves to a high standard of accountability.
Political language..is it designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable ?
Another Marine commander, a General mentioned during a speech "Killing is fun". The fact that hundreds of tons depleted Uranium used in shells and bullets is littering the country affecting humans and animals for many years seems to be ignored.

Even now, 60 years later we still hear about the Warsaw uprising and the brutal way it was suppressed. We certainly have not learned from it. Can anyone tell the difference ? Perhaps it's just the uniform ?
I am certain there will be many to disagree with my opinion and will find numerous reasons and excuses for all those happenings, in fact at times I wonder if we have any "embedded posters" here or maybe US/Allied PA employees.
Gerhard

[Panzerkraut]

The front page clearly states that this is a non-political site.

Even if you ignore all 1871's insults and veiled threats, the last thing a forum like this needs, is a bunch of nazi sympathisers hanging around and harassing newcomers.

It's hard enough to take a historical interest in world war two Germany without people raising eyebrows. If you are requied to hang out with neo-nazi's to do so, I think most people would simply not bother, however interesting the subject may be...

Ask yourself:
What would your mom/spouse/boss think if he/she saw one of 1871's posts, and thought them the general attitude of the forum you like to read?

[Rosselsprung]

Jason,
I see Stefan and 1871 is banned. Maybe their views/posts are a little extreme and are themselves a bit intolerant of other posters opinion, but SO WHAT ?
Now when it applies to my comrades and myself we are fair game to anyone (including Stefan) and no matter what I tried to say in my posts it was construed as excuses, lies, exaggeration or omissions. No matter how insulting some posters reply's were, it was politically correct and therefore OK.
Here is my take on this subject, it likely will get me banned too but here goes:
During the 1946 Allied tribunals in Nuremberg it was ruled that states no longer had the unfettered right to invade other countries and that leaders who started such conflicts would be held responsible and tried for waging illegal war.
What has happened and is still happening in Iraq right now ?
Due to US intervention, Iraq has become a land of deprivation, death and degradation.
The New York Times has reported actions taken by U.S. forces in Fallujah, which appear to be prima facie evidence of war crimes, without mentioning that the actions constitute clear violations of the Laws of Land War found in The U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10. For example, a Nov. 20 Times article, with two correspondents in Fallujah, reports that U.S. Marines had transformed a mosque into a fortress with snipers and machine gunners perched on the roof.
A report in the Los Angeles Times is describing the city of Fallujah as "a tableau of destroyed buildings, burned-out cars, battered mosques and piles of rubble". No building was sacrosanct including hospitals and clinics.
The Marine commander in Fallujah, Lieutenant General John Sattler, said his men followed the law of conflict and held themselves to a high standard of accountability.
Political language..is it designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable ?
Another Marine commander, a General mentioned during a speech "Killing is fun". The fact that hundreds of tons depleted Uranium used in shells and bullets is littering the country affecting humans and animals for many years seems to be ignored.

Even now, 60 years later we still hear about the Warsaw uprising and the brutal way it was suppressed. We certainly have not learned from it. Can anyone tell the difference ? Perhaps it's just the uniform ?
I am certain there will be many to disagree with my opinion and will find numerous reasons and excuses for all those happenings, in fact at times I wonder if we have any "embedded posters" here or maybe US/Allied PA employees.
Gerhard

It would be hard to learn from war if it's only the first time you've felt it. Most Americans only know war through TV, games, and movies. Besides, like the Korean War, many see Iraq as simply a "police action", and not a real war. Anyway, it will be a long time before the US government admits to breaking international law or minor war crimes. As for the Italian journalist who was shot at, I doubt it was a pre-planned execution. If the US wanted to kill her, she would have been dead 6 times over.

PS- Gerhard2, how come you have a 2 at the end of your screen name? Is there another Gerhard on the forum?

[gerhard2]

Hi Rs,
Sorry but I have not checked out the Forum for some time, for some reason I was unable to log-in with my old name so I had to re-register with a 2 after my name.
Gerhard

[Tom Houlihan]

...I had to re-register with a 2 after my name.

Well, regardless of the circumstances, it's good to see you back here!

[Rosselsprung]

Well, in my opinion, it is rather hard to judge the actions of soldiers or describe them as "Trigger happy" unless the critic has been subject to the same conditions. In my earlier post, I quoted that the actions of the world has not learned from the lessons of WWII. Well, it's easy to see that GWB hasn't learned those lessons because he's still somewhat in the afterglow of Gulf War I. I heartily agree with Gerhard, as the situations in Iraq seem to mirror the way partisans were supressed during WWII.


PS- I refrain from describing the actions of the troops, as I feel I would have a very inaccurate picture. I've never been bombed, shelled, or starved in POW camp, and I hope I never will.

[Reb]

Rosselspring

There are only a very limited number of ways to deal with partisans. Everyone uses them - the question is degree. The US and UK, not to mention to France and Belgium - have used much the same tactics as Nazi Germany on occassion - but not recently. If you put five minutes thought into it you'll be able to figure out all the possible options - and you realize quickly that the partisans hold all the cards.

The IRaqi insurgents have been doing a good job - hitting "collaborater" police and army units and while they've killed oodles of civvies the security forces do seem to be their primary target. (unlike Rhodesia, VN and Algerie). That to me suggests they have someone half way intelligent pulling the strings. Its relatively easy to motivate people against a forieng occupier - no matter how benign.

However - the question of whether they are helping their own people is hard to say - I don't see it. Terrorism is always only a step from outright criminality. Where were they when Sadaam imposed a much more brutal regime than the US has in place? To me these people are just opportunists looking to fill a percieved power vacuum. While I always viewed Sadaam as a thug - he wasotherwise much like Tito - he kept a lid on people like that. Unfortunately he kept his boot on the necks of people who had no evil intent at all so I guess Karma got him in the end...

As far as tactics The US has refrained from taking and shooting hostages or razing villages to the ground. Despite Abu Grahib my own sources (who are on the ground) note very little or nothing in the way of torture - I have heard of casual brutality and unnecessary shootings. But I'm not surprised.

Regular troops are not good for this kind of action - they are trained to kick ass - not win hearts and minds. Kill some of them with booby traps and they get pretty blood thirsty. Since we have no specialist troops trained to be occupiers (who does?) its an insolvable problem.

I don't have an answer. My boys are over there fighting so I back them - but if I had my way they'd be defending the US border and not Iraq's!

cheers
Reb

[Rodger Herbst]

As George Patten said to the effect"combat troops are not very good custodians of prisoners".We can see it in our police forces,after a high speed chase the adrenalin is flowing and when they get the guy they don't handle him to gently.I imagine a lot of Europeans would be shocked the way our police handle these people,when the blood is up,watch out. A lot
of people from up north when they drive down south have notions that
southern police are a bunch of hicks,but they soon lean that southern police can be very polite,but they can't stand a smart ass and thier additude can change very quickly.
The point is,military service on active duty and police work can be very much alike,very stressful.

[Tom Houlihan]

The point is,military service on active duty and police work can be very much alike,very stressful.

I'll vouch fer that!

I was a cop in NC, and I know how my comrades were down there. If you were showing at least a modicum of respect and courtesy, you got a lot more in return. As soon as you started acting like an idiot, though, your response usually went from polite courtesy to stark professionalism, real quick.

[L. Kafka]

No admirer of Bush here (I gave up on voting for Democrats and Republicans for U.S. president in 1972 after voting for McGovern), but I find the veracity of a chick who is a journalist for a communist newspaper difficult to swallow, even if it is Italo lite.

[Christian]

It looks like Italians are slowly getting tired of Sgrena's baseless accusations and inconsistent stories:

http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/c ... 02,00.html

Too bad that a good man had to give his life to secure her release.

Christian