Marines

[phylo_roadking]

To refine Enrico's post a little.....

infantry units raised from spare sailors or shore establishment personnel ARE frequently called by all sides "Marine battalions" but are of course NOT battalions of Marines. In this case "Marine" refers to their origin, not their role.

Troops trained to land ashore from ships, without the the aid of quays etc., are NOT Marines, they are of course amphibious or trained in amohibious warfare.... for example, beachlanding troops on D-Day, the Foreign Legion at Narvik etc.

In an ideal world, Marines in the classic British and U.S. sense have a multiplicity of roles, but their "purpose" is unique - once trained on establishment, they serve aboard ship, providing the function of infantry in a naval setting. As of WWI and WWII their role had specifically become amphibious, because apart from guarding shore establishments - to which they were not "posted" but actually "on release to" - their other main role was as amphibious troops. Ships' MArines were no longer required to provide order aboard in an un-pressed navy.

This of course grew up over the last three centuries of naval tradition, where there was a need for regular infantry-trained personnel able to function on land and at sea AND bear arms in a community where apart from rare boarding actions....the possession of arms by rated seamen was somewhat dangerous LMAO. Thus they provided a naval captain with an onboard security detail poermanently "at arms", who during boarding or close-quarter actions defended the ship against other marines, and occasionally, during actions like the island conquests in the Carribean during the Napoleonic Wars provided amphibious troops. For most of their history they served under the ship's naval officers who thus held a dual rank "Captain-General", "Master and Commander" etc., only starting to serve under their own officers at the turn of the 20th century as they became less ship-bound and more amphibious. Its at THIS point that Ships' Landing Companies start to appear - once again naval personnel serving ashore under ships' officers - with infantry small arms but in naval uniforms. By the twentirth centry all naval ratings' training everywhere contained a minimum element of small arms' training and small unit tactics.

Thus during WWI they were virtually redundant and not a little restless until Roger Keyes came up with his Zeebruge/Ostende plan, utilising the Royal Marines as an until-then untapped manpower reserve; the Admiralty had faced off MANY attempts by the Ministry of War to send them to the trenches.

The U.S. Marines too notably held to their original "trade description" throughout their history, only truly coming to the fore in WWII. Its notable that in earlier semi-amphibious operations, such as Cuba and the Phillipines during the Spanish American War, they played a VERY traditional and strictly limted Marine role, the greater bulk of land-fighting being carried out by the inappropriately-trained U.S. Army.

[Marine Infantrie]

You might want to consult Deutsche Marineinfanterie 1938-1945 by Jorg Benz, 1996. It goes into quite some detail about organized Marine infantry action. There were in fact several organized gorund units in combat (eastern front mostly) from the very beginning of the war to it's end. Notably MAA 531 (vonDiest). All were Kriegsmarine sailors trained as assault pioneers and grouped to gether for service on land. Most of the units appeared to be company strength. However, there was at least one battalion strength unit. As I mentioned these units fought almost exclusively on the eastern front arounf Leningrad.

Other Marine Infantry units were organized thoughout the war for limited useage as noted previously in these posts. However, the units detailed in Benz' book were long term organizations.

Now were they Marines in the sense of the USMC? No, I doubt it would be fair to compare them to the corps. However, it would be accurate to call them seaborne infantry or engineers.

[phylo_roadking]

I would guess originally as Engineers their purpose was to go ashore and repair dock facilities etc. under fire, e.g Narvik etc. in Norway. The Royal Navy had several organisations for this purpose, it wasn't in the hands of the Royal Marines specifically. They had dock repair companies, AA batteries and the Marine Naval Beach Defence Organisation. But in extremis everyone with a gun fights.....so I assume they were in and around Leningrad for that time when they would take charge of and maintain the docks there?

[Carl Schwamberger]

It is from 1914 rather than 1939-45, but I have a chart of German military units for August 1914. It shows a "brigade" of Marines. If I recall correctly these were naval reservists that were loaned to the army as infantrymen.

[Marine Infantrie]

I would guess originally as Engineers their purpose was to go ashore and repair dock facilities etc. under fire, e.g Narvik etc. in Norway. The Royal Navy had several organisations for this purpose, it wasn't in the hands of the Royal Marines specifically. They had dock repair companies, AA batteries and the Marine Naval Beach Defence Organisation. But in extremis everyone with a gun fights.....so I assume they were in and around Leningrad for that time when they would take charge of and maintain the docks there?

Incorrect, these were SturmPioneers. Assault engineers. not construction and repair units. As such they were combat formations.

[phylo_roadking]

But after their conversion training - were they ever intended to work as amphibious troops in their assault engineer function?

[phylo_roadking]

Carl, I think there were also "true" Marines under the Kaiser, weren't there German "Marines" in the relief force sent to Peking during the Boxer Rebellion?

[Marine Infantrie]

But after their conversion training - were they ever intended to work as amphibious troops in their assault engineer function?

Yes, and they did in fact operate in their assault engineer function. Please get a copy of the book I mentioned earlier in this thread and you can read for yourself.

[Joe Cleere]

The Germans did have troops who were the equivalent of the British Special Boat Squadron. These were the Kuestenjaeger of the Brandenburgers. They were part of Abwehr II, whose primary mission was special operations mainly behind enemy lines.

The Brandenburger Kuestenjaeger took part in the successful German counterattack that retook Leros island (in the Aegean) in November 1943 from British forces. The Brandenburgers also deployed a Parachute Company in this operation. These troops were extremely well trained and performed in an outstanding manner.

[panzermahn]

Hi,

Some of the action that the German marines participated during WW2 which I know off

1. Battle of Berlin 1945 (2 companies of German naval cadets and marines were airlifted to the Gatow airport)

2. Battle of Kos 1943 (Aegean Sea)


Rgrds
Panzermahn

[Janek19801119]

Do You have any pictures of soliders from Marine Infrantrie Divisionen which you can post there?

[captnenglish]

Hi,

Some of the action that the German marines participated during WW2 which I know off

1. Battle of Berlin 1945 (2 companies of German naval cadets and marines were airlifted to the Gatow airport)

2. Battle of Kos 1943 (Aegean Sea)


Rgrds
Panzermahn

This is what I have been looking for, thank you!!! If you have more information or a source for more information on these two companies (pics would be nice), that were airlifted to Gatow Airport, that would be fantastic!!

[sid guttridge]

Hi Panzermahn,

Could you be more specific about Kos? I seem to recall that there was a specialist Brandenburger sea landing (Kustenjaeger?) unit involved, but were there naval marines as well?

Cheers,

Sid.

[tallus83]

British Royal Marines also manned the after turrets on cruisers and battleships. So in addition to providing landing parties, etc. they were also part of the ships active crew. It was not uncommon for a friendly rivalry to exist as to who were the better gunners.

[CaptainSensible]

I'm pretty sure that naval personnel were used as infantry in Danzig 1939 and during the Invasions of Denmark and Norway in 1940. I'm also sure that Naval personnel were used as combat Engineers during the bridgehead from Kerch and when capturing the Baltic ports. From about 1944 much naval personnel was used as infantry all over Gemany's shrinking Reich in a similar vain the the Luftwaffe's feld-divisionen.

I'm not sure if the Germans ever had much in the way of specialised combat marines. I would suspect yes, but only of battallion strength. The Coastal artillery were all infantry trained.