treaty of verseilles

[sid guttridge]

Hi M.H.,

I don't think there can be a definitive answer to that. Indeed, establishing one probably shouldn't even be attempted, as it would give future "ethnic cleansers" a spurious legitimacy by setting a target duration for them to aim at. Ethnic cleansing should simply be regarded as wrong.

However, in dealing retrospectively with the fait accompli of past ethnic cleansings, the international community tends to use pragmatism governed by something approximating to the following rationale: Once a clear majority of the "cleansed population" and its descendants are foreign born and a clear majority of their replacements are locally born in the "cleansed" territory, a new situation arises in which to reverse the original cleansing would be more traumatic than to confirm the status quo.

Israel has a policy of "creating facts" of this sort and it is probably the above rationale which will allow the possibility of Israel keeping some of the territories it has colonised since 1967 in any final settlement with the Palestinians. The Camp David Agreement certainly embodied this.

With regard to East Prussia, I would suggest that neither the incoming Teutonic Knights nor the Red Army had the right to "ethnically cleanse" the area. However, now 60 years after the latter event, most people of German East Prussian descent were not born there and have probably never even visited the former province, whereas most Poles and Russians now resident in the area were probably born there. I would thus suggest that the "ethnic cleansing" would now be more traumatic to reverse than maintain and the pragmatic thing to do is to regard the change of population and status of East Prussia as a fait accompli.

Finally, I don't think that the people who agreed the displacement of Germans from East Prussia, etc., after the war were interested in deep historical precedent. They were interested in punishing Germany by definitively settling the disputes that had provoked was in 1939.

Cheers,

Sid.

[max painless]

Often the right thing to do, is also the hardest thing to do.

[Pirx]

Poles grateful to Hitler???
(And I've thought I've heard it all...)

It was sarcasm, but You are German, and Germans are worldwide known of lack of sense of humor.
I put it in this way.
Poles are not responsible for that Germany lost land east from Oder river, but Adolf H. and his goverment.

To Walter. I have read this story of Alexander Kimel but i see no proof that Poles were grateful to Hitler. "The Polish underground Army, passed many death sentences on Polish collaborators, but denunciation of Jews was never punished" (maybe not all were punished after war, but many colaborants were schooted - compare with Solomon Morel, or Adam Humer). For saying "The whole world will throw stones at Hitler's grave, we will send flowers, grateful for removing the Jews from Poland" in Warsaw you risk a bullet from Home Army.
Of course some Poles denounced Jews, but mr Kimel accused all european nations for cooperation:"In France, the Vichy government blamed the Jews for the demise of the French Republic, organized concentration camps, caught and deported thousand of foreign Jews. Even in countries where the general population was sympathetic to the victims like Denmark, or Belgium, the Germans received help from the local Nazis."
Mr Kimel cleary wrote that responsibity for Holocoust belongs to Germans.

Poles were never greatful to Hitler. Germany killed over 6 500 000 Polish citiziens (including 3 400 000 ethnic Poles)

[sid guttridge]

Hi Pirx,

You win no friends for your point of view by posting questionable racial stereotypes of the "humourless German" variety. Remember, the "dumb Polak" has also been the stereotypical victim of other peoples' questionable sense of humour in the past. Please stick to substantive points.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Pirx]

Hi Sid.
My mother is German, and father Pole, so i'm humourless dumb.
Cheers.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Pirx,

Your reply indicates that you are neither humourless nor dumb!

Cheers,

Sid