Feldgrau.net

"Thanks.....but....." isn't THAT open to misinterpretation.

Holy Cr*p.....can't we start any thread without members going at each other??

Hi Phylo,

I must have missed something contentious!

This is perfectly soluble from just the American side of the pond.

All that is necessary is (1) to recognise the nature of the problem in the first place and (2) to stop cutting repeat offenders so much slack.

One won't get "passionate" replies if there aren't provocative posts. One won't get provocative posts if there aren't provocative posters.

This is essentially an issue of rational and firm moderating, not time zones.

Cheers,

Sid.

I must have missed something contentious!

Sid, I don't believe you're being deliberately obtuse, so - yes you did, in spades.

Something, or rather several somethings that resulted in vitriol and invective flowing from ALL directions. And all of it when the site was unattended. Which at present can't HELP but happen.... if not for big gaps, then at least 8-10 hours a day.

We shouldn't be advocating BLOCKING free speech...but there's nothing wrong with policing it to stop it offending others outside the realms of historical debate. THAT is the side of the equation Mods have to err on, ideally, but they can only do that when they're here...

**Opening Door and looking in***

"Everything quiet in this room"

*Closing Door*

Hi Phylo,

This is not a free speech issue. There are plenty of shock-jock style forums where anything goes and good luck to them.

However, Feldgrau purports to be a military-historical research site that restricts its subject matter in its constitution, so all joining already know that there are limitations here.

Indeed, that is one of the complaints in The Myth of the Eastern Front. It thinks that exclusion of discussion of the Holocaust is prejudicial. In the wider historical context it undoubtedly is, but I am here with the narrower mission to discuss military history, not to the so-called "Hollocaust", of which I already accept the full scale and implications.

However, we have the anomalous situation here that while the "Holocaust" is technically off limits (though we all know this is not rigidly applied) it is still possible to attack today's Jews with or without good reason. For example, while we technically can't discuss the deaths of six million Jews over 1939-45, we can discuss the relatively minor question of purportedly excessive reparation demands made by their descendents. Jews as very real mass victims are off limits but Jews as minor alleged perpetrators are not.

I am happy to engage with anybody on any subject, but I don't think I should have to on Feldgrau because it is a German military historical forum, not some anything-goes encounter group. If people want to raise other non German military historical issues, they should do so elsewhere and spare us the burden.

Cheers,

Sid.

sid guttridge wrote:Hi Phylo,

This is not a free speech issue. There are plenty of shock-jock style forums where anything goes and good luck to them.

However, Feldgrau purports to be a military-historical research site that restricts its subject matter in its constitution, so all joining already know that there are limitations here.

Indeed, that is one of the complaints in The Myth of the Eastern Front. It thinks that exclusion of discussion of the Holocaust is prejudicial. In the wider historical context it undoubtedly is, but I am here with the narrower mission to discuss military history, not to the so-called "Hollocaust", of which I already accept the full scale and implications.

However, we have the anomalous situation here that while the "Holocaust" is technically off limits (though we all know this is not rigidly applied) it is still possible to attack today's Jews with or without good reason. For example, while we technically can't discuss the deaths of six million Jews over 1939-45, we can discuss the relatively minor question of purportedly excessive reparation demands made by their descendents. Jews as very real mass victims are off limits but Jews as minor alleged perpetrators are not.

I am happy to engage with anybody on any subject, but I don't think I should have to on Feldgrau because it is a German military historical forum, not some anything-goes encounter group. If people want to raise other non German military historical issues, they should do so elsewhere and spare us the burden.

Cheers,

Sid.

Yes,a military-historical forum.The Holocaust is off limits.People offering their opinion as to how many eons they would like to see people pursued for their involvement on the Axis side should also be off limits.

AndyH left himself wide open with that bit of grandstanding.

Do some people want to keep the spotlight on Germany so as to make sure it does not shine on themselves?

Sid, I think your missing the point....and would need to remove the blinkers that appear to have you fastened on one subject at the moment.

What I'm saying is there are BIG chunks of the 24-hour day when the Moderators simply aren't here. Sunday proved that the forum can get SEVERELY out of shape within just ONE of those chunks - let alone a whole week like last week. The Moderators being absent perforce means that they end up with a HUGE amount to do, not just tidying up but any disciplinary considerations after that. Plus whether or not the material is allowed to stand or not, it's read into the public record and people's MEMORIES and builds prejudices. It's like a judge instructing a jury to ignore certain comments...you just KNOW all that does is make the buggers think about it MORE!

At present, Feldgrau's Moderation team needs to Descend From Above periodically, clean house severely....and then withdraw to their normal "hands-more-off-than-on" stance. But the corollary of THAT is the extremes are by circumstance becoming more extreme - it used to be they could get away with cleaning out a few posts, close a thread, tweak an ear, then retire to looking in every evening for a few minutes to see if anyone has drawn their attention to something....now they're having to cull whole threads and LOTS of them, spend hours several days in a row "cleaning house"....

But THEN when they retire again, the bad feeling left by the removed wrangling STILL REMAINS. So it doesn't matter if they retire for a day or a week - in effect all they're doing is adding their adding their own pendulum swings into the factors influencing the seesaw mood on the forum. Look at just how many threads were raised querying Moderators' positions in the last week...

"Little, and often" A more evenly-applied (and OF COURSE granted they have NO choice but to clean house) and regularly-available presence would reduce their eventual workload. Right now people know they can get all hairy UNTIL the Moderators appear - but it needs to be...people take the Mods' presence into account BEFORE they type.

And thus as we have contributing members from ALL over the 24-hour day and time zones, that presence must be THERE to be felt - 24/7 oras near as can be arranged. An exclusively North American-based team can't do that without their own lives getting bent out of shape.

And Sid - my point about free speech is....with an even, regular, predictable AND EXPECTED Moderator presence, there simply WON'T be an issue of whole threads having to be culled. People won't post the cr@p they were, and if the worst came to the worst there simply wouldn't be time for more than a couple of posts to be made. Whole threads won't have to be culled because WHOLE threads simply wouldn't have time to get out of control.

Hi Phylo,

In my opinion, no thread should ever be culled. It should be closed but left up with a final direct admonition of the guilty party so that nobody has any doubt who did what and what the offending issues were. It would then acts as a warning to others.

Removing evidence of the misdemeanour is simply to cover it up. It also destroys the considered contributions of innocents.

Cheers,

Sid.

In my opinion, no thread should ever be culled

Sid, only partly correct - no thread should ever NEED to be culled. only HALF the answer is expecting people to behave and police themselves. Things get out of control because feelings and personalities are out of control. The OTHER half of the answer is a consistent, reliable and constant Moderating presence.

Noone should be relying on people being better than they are - because they repeatedly show that isn't the case.

consistent, reliable and constant Moderating presence

And - of course - NONE of the above is in any way at odds' with the more "hands-off" policy the Mods here have. Merely spread that "little and often" around the 24-hour day. We don't need the degree of management some of us see elsewhere - but we do need the Mods' presence to be felt on the board, if only by us knowing they're there. This is just not the case at the moment.

Hi Statemachine,

I don't think you will find any threads on Feldgrau started by those advocating the pursuit of Nazi war criminals.

However, you will find that where it is raised it is in reply to those who think some war criminals were hard done.

Feldgrau is a German-focused site, so Germany is automatically in "the spotlight".

Who do you propose want to make sure the spotlight "does not shine on themselves" and why?

Cheers,

Sid.

However, we have the anomalous situation here that while the "Holocaust" is technically off limits (though we all know this is not rigidly applied) it is still possible to attack today's Jews with or without good reason.

ANY attack against Jews or any other ethnic group is strictly off-limits and subjects the poster to immediate banning.

We moderators are few in number and limited in our participation--heck, the job doesn't pay enough to keep our families in bread--but I state this as a certainty. And all any member has to do to bring down these consequences is to complain to the moderators.

Aye, the Holocaust is off-limits. But racism is a problem that has to be dealt with severely.

Very best,
Jack, the Ripper
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