Death ratios among WWII combatants...
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phylo_roadking
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Hanford. The parallel uranium enrighening and processing plant to Oak Ridge. The Pentagon couldn't afford to have ANYTHING happen up in Washington state that would attract ANY publicity, or questions asked, or ANY reason why anyone would even ask about a no-fly zone up there in the forests and mountains. They'd already picked it because of its access to major port facilities at Seattle, hydro-electric power etc. - and its remoteness and its being TOTALLY out of reach of ANY conceivable Luftwaffe aerial recce at ANY time during the war.......
What a shock when the JAPANESE bombed Pearl Harbour!
What a shock when the JAPANESE bombed Pearl Harbour!
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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phylo_roadking
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Hanford was kept VERY quiet, much more than Oak Ridge - which appeared VERY briefly in the occasional Pentagon public information film AFTER it was dismantled. Until then BOTH were as you know the most closely guarded secrets of the war. Its possible Hanford may have lasted longer than Oak Ridge, I have no idea. Just that it was an establishment of approximately the same size - which meant 17,000 workers!
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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John Kilmartin
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Deuterium
There was also the deuterium (heavy water) production facilities at Warfield in BC. Which is still the only place you can't take pictures of when you take a tour of the Cominco smelting and refining facilities.
Last edited by John Kilmartin on Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
' Strip war of the mantle of its glories and excitement, and it will disclose a gibbering ghost of pain , grief, dissappointment and despair'
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sid guttridge
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Hi Phylo,
I doubt that the US government was unduly worried about forest fires threatening nuclear related establishments. Creating effective fire breaks around particular points is hardly the most difficult of exercises. A bit of felling and periodic controlled back-burning thereafter is all it takes.
Cheers,
Sid.
I doubt that the US government was unduly worried about forest fires threatening nuclear related establishments. Creating effective fire breaks around particular points is hardly the most difficult of exercises. A bit of felling and periodic controlled back-burning thereafter is all it takes.
Cheers,
Sid.
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phylo_roadking
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Sid, the problem wasn't fire - it was the necessary piddling around in woods and hundreds of firemen, fulltime and volunteer, that a forest fire needs to get under control, especially in the days before water-bombers. It was THESE guys the Pentagon and FBI - as well as civilian pilots, hunters, etc. - didn't want wandering ANY where near the plant or its restricted area. It was a study in interdicting an area that was remarkably successful. Only the story of Oak Ridge has been told yet, and in very, very little detail.
(Hence also the idea of fire-jumpers - what better way to have people standing by ready to go into a threatened area...than to drive around local towns and roads, with people wondering who they were, where they came from and why they were there...better still not to even have any trucks at all! LOL this is the detail the Pentagon and FBI went to.)
(Hence also the idea of fire-jumpers - what better way to have people standing by ready to go into a threatened area...than to drive around local towns and roads, with people wondering who they were, where they came from and why they were there...better still not to even have any trucks at all! LOL this is the detail the Pentagon and FBI went to.)
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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sid guttridge
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Tom Houlihan
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Big problem with this is there are very very few trees anywhere near Hanafod. It's a near desert area. Tumble weeds, grass, and crop lands. Take a look at:phylo_roadking wrote:Sid, the problem wasn't fire - it was the necessary piddling around in woods and hundreds of firemen, fulltime and volunteer, that a forest fire needs to get under control, especially in the days before water-bombers. ...
(Hence also the idea of fire-jumpers - what better way to have people standing by ready to go into a threatened area...than to drive around local towns and roads, with people wondering who they were, where they came from and why they were there...better still not to even have any trucks at all! LOL this is the detail the Pentagon and FBI went to.)
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=pas ... a=N&tab=wl
Hanaford is actually a little to the west of this view realised after I posted it.
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panzerschreck1
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I think its unjust to present the death ratios of American soldiers since they joined the war from 1941 and had considerable less casualties in the european campagn then the British that did fight a 6 year war..
As the British fought also at all theatres except the eastern front of course
As the British fought also at all theatres except the eastern front of course
"Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered anything unseemly."[
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phylo_roadking
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Sid, yes? - the firejumpers predated the balloon-bomb threat of course...because the whole idea of tightening security in the Pacific North West dated from the beginning of "Manhattan", not the war with japan.
Lwd - the site was...but the WWII security zone covered about 50% of Washington State in circles of decreasing security, no-fly zones etc. and a lot of the site's hydro-electric power came from dams in the mountains.
The long term-legacy of the site and Post-War use are still creating problems.....the Oak Rdige site was obliterated and "civilianised" again within a few years, but Hanford.....
http://www.hanford.gov
Lwd - the site was...but the WWII security zone covered about 50% of Washington State in circles of decreasing security, no-fly zones etc. and a lot of the site's hydro-electric power came from dams in the mountains.
The long term-legacy of the site and Post-War use are still creating problems.....the Oak Rdige site was obliterated and "civilianised" again within a few years, but Hanford.....
http://www.hanford.gov
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds
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sid guttridge
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Hi Phylo,
The smoke-jumper programme did not exist in isolation. It was part of a decades old programme by the US Forestry Service that long predated any atomic programme. What is more, it appears to have been set back by the war at just the time one might have expected it to expand if it was related to atomic research plants.
What is more, oh irony of ironies, it was revived by the employment of conscientious objectors. If they were unwittingly protecting work on the A-bomb programme, somebody was having an enormous laugh at their expense.
The following is on the net:
"The earliest use of aircraft by the U.S. Forest Service took place in 1917, when aircraft were used in California for detection of wildland fires. During the 1920s various attempts were made to drop water and foam on wildland fires, using such devices as five-gallon cans, paper bags, and wooden beer kegs attached to parachutes. These early experiments met with little success. During this same period, occasional non-emergency parachute jumps were being made by the military and a few thrill-seeking barnstormers. In 1934, a proposal was made to use aircraft and parachutes to transport firefighters to wildland fires. A professional parachutist made a few demonstration jumps, but Forest Service leaders were unimpressed.
In 1935 the Forest Service established the Aerial Fire Control Experimental Project in California, and experimented with dropping water and chemicals on wildland fires. Although the retardants tested proved impractical, the improvements made in delivery of cargo by parachute helped set the stage for later experiments with parachute jumping.
By 1939 the Aerial Fire Control Experiment had moved from California to Winthrop, Washington, and was directing all its efforts into parachute jumping. Nine jumpers worked on the project, along with two consultants from the Eagle Parachute Company. During the summer of 1939, some 60 experimental parachute jumps were successfully made into the forests of northern Washington.
In the summer of 1940, the U.S. Forest Service Smokejumper Project became fully operational. Six smokejumpers were based at Winthrop, and seven were located at Moose Creek Ranger Station in Idaho. On July 12, 1940, two smokejumpers from Moose Creek made the Project's first operational fire jump on the Nez Perce National Forest of Idaho. Eight more fires were jumped in Northwestern states before winter put an end to the 1940 fire season.
During the summer of 1940, US Army Major William Lee observed some of the smokejumper training being conducted in Montana. Major Lee, now known as the "father of airborne troops," incorporated many smokejumper techniques into the establishment of Army Airborne doctrine. In 1941 the entire project, now comprising 26 jumpers, was relocated to Missoula, Montana; it was more economical to base all smokejumpers in one location rather than maintain multiple and widely scattered facilities. Missoula was chosen because it was home to Johnson's Flying Service, a private contractor who supplied the smokejumpers with aircraft and pilots.
By the summer of 1942, the supply of qualified personnel available for smokejumping had been greatly depleted by the personnel demands of World War II. Only five smokejumpers returned from the previous year; 33 additional jumpers were hired and trained for the summer of 1942, but only a few had any wildland fire experience. The personnel shortage reached a critical stage by the spring of 1943. Only five jumpers were available, including the instructor. The problem was soon solved, however, when 70 members of the Civilian Public Service (C.P.S.) were trained as smokejumpers. The CPS was made up of conscientious objectors to the military draft. The use of CPS personnel by the smokejumper project continued until the end of the War, and in 1944, after five years in the trial stage, the smokejumper program was officially adopted by the US Forest Service. Consequently, a number of national forests reduced their ground forces and relied more on smokejumpers. This period also saw an expansion in the number of smokejumper bases, with new bases established in McCall, Idaho, and Cave Junction, Oregon.
In 1945, a threat of attack to Western forests by Japanese fire balloons was feared. To combat this threat, members of the US Army's All-Black 555th Parachute Infantry Battalion were trained in timber jumping and firefighting. The expected Japanese fire balloon menace did not materialize, but the 300 paratroopers were used as suppression crews on many large fires during the severe 1945 fire season."
I must say I have enjoyed this little excursion. Thanks to the guys who introduced it.
Cheers,
Sid.
The smoke-jumper programme did not exist in isolation. It was part of a decades old programme by the US Forestry Service that long predated any atomic programme. What is more, it appears to have been set back by the war at just the time one might have expected it to expand if it was related to atomic research plants.
What is more, oh irony of ironies, it was revived by the employment of conscientious objectors. If they were unwittingly protecting work on the A-bomb programme, somebody was having an enormous laugh at their expense.
The following is on the net:
"The earliest use of aircraft by the U.S. Forest Service took place in 1917, when aircraft were used in California for detection of wildland fires. During the 1920s various attempts were made to drop water and foam on wildland fires, using such devices as five-gallon cans, paper bags, and wooden beer kegs attached to parachutes. These early experiments met with little success. During this same period, occasional non-emergency parachute jumps were being made by the military and a few thrill-seeking barnstormers. In 1934, a proposal was made to use aircraft and parachutes to transport firefighters to wildland fires. A professional parachutist made a few demonstration jumps, but Forest Service leaders were unimpressed.
In 1935 the Forest Service established the Aerial Fire Control Experimental Project in California, and experimented with dropping water and chemicals on wildland fires. Although the retardants tested proved impractical, the improvements made in delivery of cargo by parachute helped set the stage for later experiments with parachute jumping.
By 1939 the Aerial Fire Control Experiment had moved from California to Winthrop, Washington, and was directing all its efforts into parachute jumping. Nine jumpers worked on the project, along with two consultants from the Eagle Parachute Company. During the summer of 1939, some 60 experimental parachute jumps were successfully made into the forests of northern Washington.
In the summer of 1940, the U.S. Forest Service Smokejumper Project became fully operational. Six smokejumpers were based at Winthrop, and seven were located at Moose Creek Ranger Station in Idaho. On July 12, 1940, two smokejumpers from Moose Creek made the Project's first operational fire jump on the Nez Perce National Forest of Idaho. Eight more fires were jumped in Northwestern states before winter put an end to the 1940 fire season.
During the summer of 1940, US Army Major William Lee observed some of the smokejumper training being conducted in Montana. Major Lee, now known as the "father of airborne troops," incorporated many smokejumper techniques into the establishment of Army Airborne doctrine. In 1941 the entire project, now comprising 26 jumpers, was relocated to Missoula, Montana; it was more economical to base all smokejumpers in one location rather than maintain multiple and widely scattered facilities. Missoula was chosen because it was home to Johnson's Flying Service, a private contractor who supplied the smokejumpers with aircraft and pilots.
By the summer of 1942, the supply of qualified personnel available for smokejumping had been greatly depleted by the personnel demands of World War II. Only five smokejumpers returned from the previous year; 33 additional jumpers were hired and trained for the summer of 1942, but only a few had any wildland fire experience. The personnel shortage reached a critical stage by the spring of 1943. Only five jumpers were available, including the instructor. The problem was soon solved, however, when 70 members of the Civilian Public Service (C.P.S.) were trained as smokejumpers. The CPS was made up of conscientious objectors to the military draft. The use of CPS personnel by the smokejumper project continued until the end of the War, and in 1944, after five years in the trial stage, the smokejumper program was officially adopted by the US Forest Service. Consequently, a number of national forests reduced their ground forces and relied more on smokejumpers. This period also saw an expansion in the number of smokejumper bases, with new bases established in McCall, Idaho, and Cave Junction, Oregon.
In 1945, a threat of attack to Western forests by Japanese fire balloons was feared. To combat this threat, members of the US Army's All-Black 555th Parachute Infantry Battalion were trained in timber jumping and firefighting. The expected Japanese fire balloon menace did not materialize, but the 300 paratroopers were used as suppression crews on many large fires during the severe 1945 fire season."
I must say I have enjoyed this little excursion. Thanks to the guys who introduced it.
Cheers,
Sid.
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phylo_roadking
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Who was it wrote....What is more, oh irony of ironies, it was revived by the employment of conscientious objectors. If they were unwittingly protecting work on the A-bomb programme, somebody was having an enormous laugh at their expense.
And like ambulance driving and bomb disposal....it was that or go to jail, after all!"the best tool is an unwitting tool".....
"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle." - Malcolm Reynolds