Naval fighting off Bastia, September 9th 1943

[Peter K.]

Hello ENRICO !

Sorry for my late answer - but my free time was very limited the last days!

Thanks again for your nice words about my efforts to provide some useful data!


Despite I’m highly appreciating Mr. Rastelli as a researcher, I tried to find a confirmation for his MFP-numbers, sunk near Bastia on 09.09.1943. Gröner (vol.7) gives the following fates for the mentioned ferries:

F 336 A
ordered 28.06.41
commissioned 21.07.42
1.landing flotilla,
3.landing flotilla since 10.42
on 19.12.42 damaged by mine near Kamysch-Burun,
as VOLOS transferred through the Bosporus in 08.43,
15.landing flotilla

F 387 A
ordered 07.08.41
commissioned 07.42
11.landing flotilla,
4.landing flotilla since 05.43
lost on 20.(???)09.43 at the strait of Bonifacio

F 459 C
ordered 09.08.41
commissioned 11.42
11.landing flotilla,
4.landing flotilla since 03.03.43,
lost in the Western Mediterranean in 44 (???)

F 612 C2
ordered 12.05.42
commissioned 12.07.43
4.landing flotilla,
lost near Genoa (???) in 08.44 (???)

F 623 C2
ordered 12.05.42
commissioned 30.08.43
4.landing flotilla,
lost by artillery at Bastia on 09.09.44

In fact the 2.landing division (F.Kapt. Dipl.Ing. Frhr.v.Liebenstein) was formed in May/June 1943, commanding the 2., 4., 10. and for a short time the 6.landing flotilla.
The 2.landing flotilla ( K.Kapt. Wehrmann) was formed in October 1941, commanded by the 2.landing division from July 1943 until January 1944.
The 4.landing flotilla (K.Kapt. Erich Zimmermann) was formed in May 1943 at Toulon, later based at Rapallo and St. Margherita and commanded by the 2.landing division until January 1944.
The 10.landing flotilla (K.Kapt. Hermann Roth) was formed in May 1943 at Triest and was at least commanded by the 2.landing division during the evacuation of Sizilia.
The 6.landing flotilla was formed in June 1943 at Toulon, but it was renamed into 15.landing flotilla in July 1943 and was transferred to the Aegean. It seemed that this flotilla was under the command of the 2.landing division only for this first month!

Looking at this information it looks very strange for me, that especially F 336 A should be lost during the Bastia-engagement!
Any comments ?


According the fighting of six MFP´s near Gaeta on 10.09.43 the original sentence noted at the KTB SKL is:
“6 eigene MFP hatten mit 2 S-Booten in Höhe von Gaeta Gefechtsberührung. Ein MFP ist gesunken.“

I´ve found a MFP at Gröner, which could be the right one:
F 345 A
commissioned 08.42
2.landing flotilla
on 09.09.43 sunk by torpedo (5 death) 5 nm north of Terracina


According R7 and R13, the KTB SKL noted on 11.09.43, that R7 - towed by R13 - R187 and R188 didn´t make any reports since 09.09,0300, resp. 10.09., 1500.

Gröner (vol.2) exactly wrote about R7, that it was beached on 08.09.43, but rescued and towed by R13. On 09.09.43 the boat was scuttled at Salerno (40°40N14°45E), like R13 did.


The KTB SKL covers even the last days of the war, but only in a very generally matter - there are only very few details, because of bad wireless connections, etc. Unfortunately also the arrival of German ships and boats at Ancona on 02.05.45 isn´t mentioned!


Greetings from Austria
Peter K.

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Dear Peter K.
Rastelli told me he had collected the news about the Bastia's MFB by a survivor of that German Flotilla. I could try - but it's a long shot - this explanation: F 632 was sunk (and the year 1944 is a simply material mistake); F 459 and F 612 were stranded and were salvaged and repaired by the Germans; on that same circumstance F 387 was considered definitively lost (on 20 sept. 1943 the Bonifacio Strait had yet been evacuated and that could be only an administrative day or the date of the three MFP salvage and technocal survey); F 336: no news after Aug. 1943. It could be arrived, disguised as a merchant ferry, from the Black Sea, transferred to the Tyrrenian Sea before the Sicilian last dat of fight (17 Aug. 1943) and then lost. Maybe. Iìm working about the Gaeta encounter, perghaps I'll be able tomorrow to tell the full history of that forgotten action.
With my best regards for your excellent researches, sincerely EC

[Peter K.]

Hello again, ENRICO !

Only some quick notes today:


BASTIA – engagement:
First, many thanks for your excellent input!

F 336 – according to Gröner, definitely coming from the Black Sea in August 1943 as ferry VOLOS and then part of the 15.landing flotilla
This flotilla was operating at the Aegean since July 1943, stationed at Patras, I think. So it looks strange to find a unit of this flotilla swimming around at the western coast of Italy!
F 387 – definitely lost (Gröner himself noted the 20. as uncertain and we could interpret the location as inaccurate)
F 459 – beached, but later repaired
F 612 – beached, but later repaired
F 623 – definitely sunk (writing error at Gröner - 1944 instead of 1943)


GAETA-engagement:
I would like to tell you some of my thoughts:

In my opinion the information from the KTB and Gröner about F 345 makes some sense – the vessel was lost by torpedo (Gröner) and the engagement took place against motor torpedo boats (KTB), the location north of Terracina (Gröner) isn´t far away from Gaeta (KTB) and the report about that fight on 09.09. (Gröner) could received by the SKL on 10.09. (KTB).


PIOMBINO-engagement:
I have found some more rescue/security boats of the C-class, lost on 10./11.09.43 by Italian AAA at Piombino:
FL.C 3046 (CIII, 4,3t, 10,15/10,61x2,76x0,8m, 13,8kn, 150nm/13kn)
FL.C 3099 (CIII, 4,3t, 10,15/10,61x2,76x0,8m, 13,8kn, 150nm/13kn)
FL.C 504 (CV, 2,7/2,9t, 8,3/8,55x2,32x0,8m, 9,5kn, 65nm/9kn)
FL.C 528 (CV, 2,7/2,9t, 8,3/8,55x2,32x0,8m, 9,5kn, 65nm/9kn)


Many greetings
Peter K.

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Hello Peter K..
here I'm again. I was able to discover an encounter between two Italian VAS (MA/SB) VAS 247 and 248 and three German MFB off Civitavecchia on 10 Sept. 1943 at 5 a.m. After the clash VAS 247, seriously damaged, was stranded at Santa Marinella and was then lost. This could be the SKL diaries action except for a detail: your sources stated 5 miles north of Terracina while Santa Marinella is in the right direction but just 50 miles far. Anyway ther's no record of USn PTs or RN MTB encounters during the same day, and so far from the Salerno beaches where all the Allied fast boats were then on duty.
What do you think about this further, little mistery?

Mit Hals und Beinbruch
EC

[Peter K.]

Hello ENRICO !

You made also a wonderful research!

Reading your description, I´m afraid, that my only explanation for the difference of the given locations is a writing error - maybe we should read the KTB´s note "5 nm north of Terracina" as "50 nm north of Terracia".

Do you have any other ideas?

Greetings
Peter K.

[Enrico Cernuschi]

... and here I'm again, Peter K.

A mistake is the most probable answer but...

1) a 450 mm torpedo which act (by error) like a dolphin hitting, at least, the flat bottom of a MFP is almost a miracle.

2) the tactic to use torpedoes aginst the MFB (and their Italian copies Motozattere, MZ boats) was US Navy faschion since July 1943. The rich Americans only could spent in such a brilliant way such en expensive weapon, often with no results.

3) I know in a positive way there was the chance two U.S. PT boats could be on duty off the Circeo during the 9-10 Sept night to recover in a very secret way a very sensitive OSS mission.

As the secret about this possible mission is almost total still today the U.S. Navy history silence about this matter is not decisive but...

it's very difficoult the SKL diaries could mention only one encounter and not a second one.

I think , so, that the VAS action and the position mistake is still the most probable (but non the only) answer.

With my best regards, sincerely EC

[Lupo Solitario]

mmm...if PTs were on secret mission (whichever it could have been) why losing time fighting against enemy slower vessels? In this case, the best is being unseen....
My 2 cents
Lupo

[Enrico Cernuschi]

Saluto al Lupo!
You are right, of course, and chances pro-Italy VAS are so 99 against 1 (or even less). It will be necessary accept the idea we sunk that little ship. It' s hard but there are thing quite worste in the world I think.
Next Time EC