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Here is a good article by Annia Ciezadlo, a correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor, describing her own experiences with checkpoints in Iraq.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0307/p01s04-woiq.html

No matter what the outcome will be of the investigation, it is a tragedy that Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari was killed during the release of Sgrena.

Christian

The News tonight mentioned, on top of the shooting of the Italian group, the case of a US sergeant who has been "reprimanded" because he had shot dead 40 civilians at a check point over 48 hours. In other words, nearly one casualty per hour. I imagine this is a dangerous job, but this type of example, if proven correct, is really scary.

Nate wrote:Stefan,
I have read your consistently negative comments on the "Bush regime" for quite sometime. What information do you have other than the media as to what actually happened? Have you served in the military? Have you served in a combat zone? Have you ever left the comfort of your home and the screen of your computer? What do you know about what is like in Iraq, the ROE (rules of engagement) or how to react to a speeding vehicle approaching your checkpoint that very well could be a carbomber. I spent 12 months in Iraq and I would have fired also. From initial reports the Italians did not coordinate with ANYONE on the release, if they had they would have passed without incident. I almost wish Kerry had been elected so you would not have a reason to post your diatribes that have nothing to do with German W.W. II history.

I have to give my full support to Nate on this.

I know this incident may seem like a "shoot to kill" policy to most civilians but as some one who also served there i challenge anyone of you to sit at a checkpoint and KNOW, for certain, that the car coming towards you is friend or foe!

We had a case in Northern Ireland some years ago where a car drove towards a army check point. It was called upon to stop by the troops but instead the driver floored it and drove straight at the troops, hitting several of them. The other soldiers opened fire on the car and hit several of the occupants, killing one of them. The fatal shot was fired as the car was level with the soldier firing. Now the car turned out not to be full of terrorists but with kids joy riding in a stolen car.
The soldier who killed one of the kids was convicted of man slaughter and locked up because when the shot was fired the car was no longer a risk to him as it was level with him and could no longer hit him. What if the car had been full of terrorist men? They would have opened up and he would have been right to fire!

These are the sort of situations that the troops in Iraq face every day.

Put yourself in the above situation and tell me that you would have acted differently.

Quote:


"The soldier who killed one of the kids was convicted of man slaughter and locked up because when the shot was fired the car was no longer a risk to him"


This 'soldier' got one of his friends to hit his leg with his rifle butt so he could claim the car 'ran into him'. When they got back to base they made a mock-up of a car with a head hanging out of it covered in red (blood) and it was hoisted to the canteen roof as a a trophy. All allowed by the Officers.

Marc,

Your post is grossly misleading.

The Marine you are referring to is Sergeant Jimmy Massey, 3rd battalion, Seventh Marines. He claims that during a single 48-hour period in late March/early April 2003, he saw as many as 30 civilians killed by US gunfire at highway checkpoints. He is a conscientious objector who won an honorable discharge through legal procedures in December 2003. He is also a member of Veterans for Peace (http://www.veteransforpeace.org/) an anti-war activist organization. For the last year he has been feeding anti-American media with his outrageous allegations.

The Marine Corps investigated and denied all of these allegations. Here is what Maj. Douglas Powell, a spokesman for the Marine Corps at the Pentagon had to say: "We're not saying he's lying, but his perception of what the situation was in relation to the rules of engagement, and what was justified, is different than ours. It was investigated and any acts of wrongdoing, in regards to violations of the laws of war, the laws of armed conflict, were unsubstantiated."

While I am not going to take position in respect to Massey's claims and the Pentagon evaluation, I wish people would present all the facts and let each and everyone make up his own mind.

Christian

I was only quoting Signora Sgrena and the people who accompanied her. She says that there was no checkpoint, that the Americans knew that their car was coming, that a American patrol nevertheless fired 400 bullets at the slow moving vehicle and that she had been warned by her abductors "that there are Americans who don't want you to go back", because the Italian government payed a ransom for her release, because the Americans are opposed to that policy and because Sgrena had collected information about US war crimes in Iraq. Whom, do you think, do I believe, a prize-winning journalist and peace advocate or a liar and warmonger? If George W. Butcher and Donald Dirlewanger prefer to get their countrymen back with their throats cut through and the American public assents to this, so may it be (and it has already happened that way a 1500 times), but it is up to the Italian people to decide whether they want to get their compatriots back alive or not. Using death squads to eliminate unwelcome people ist the policy of a fascist regime, and we have witnessed several incidents in Iraq in which journalists were deliberately killed by US forces (Al Jazeera etc.) And then the same "president" whose soldiers are oppressing Iraq and stealing its oil is demanding the withdrawal of the Syrians from Lebanon in the name of freedom and democracy ... what a hypocrite.

Get a clue. "Prize-winning journalists" and "peace advocates" are a dime a dozen, just like lying politicians. Your little rant still does NOTHING to explain why the "security" forces came up with such a lousy plan for this exchange. In fact, I have yet to see anyone even touch on this. Instead, take the easy route and blame the US. If your little "black helicopter" theory is true, then that should have given the Italians EVERY reason to make a better plan. Instead...they do this.

Sorry...but I don't buy it. If you do, and it keeps you warm at night, bully for you. But I prefer to use my brain for something other than a paperweight to keep my head from floating away.

Stefan wrote: If George W. Butcher and Donald Dirlewanger prefer to get their countrymen back with their throats cut through and the American public assents to this, so may it be (and it has already happened that way a 1500 times), but it is up to the Italian people to decide whether they want to get their compatriots back alive or not. Using death squads to eliminate unwelcome people ist the policy of a fascist regime, and we have witnessed several incidents in Iraq in which journalists were deliberately killed by US forces (Al Jazeera etc.)

You know, your arguments might be given some legitimacy by myself if you didn't turn them into a tirade and emotional rant against all things American. You'll never change, that's for sure.

I wonder if what pet nickname you would have chosen for John Kerry were he elected and this same incident occurred? "Machine Gun" Kerry maybe?

Either way the sinister and evil intent behind virtually every decision an
American anywhere in the world makes has always made me take your opinion with a smallest grain of salt. You probably have never calmly and rationally explored a subject, any subject, in your entire life.

Sgrena is far from a prize winning journalist. She is a 56-year-old reporter for the communist daily Il Manifesto and has been an outspoken opponent of the U.S. invasion as well as of the U.N. economic and military sanctions imposed against Iraq in 1991.

In fact, her abduction has not been without raising some troubling questions. Some in fact go as far as saying that the whole thing was staged.

Whatever the truth might be, two things are certain:
1. IF the US military had indeed wanted to eliminate her, as she claims, she would not be sitting in a cozy hospital room in Rome at this time.
2. She will say and do anything to destabilize the Berlusconi government and to stir up anti-American sentiments.

Again, it is tragic that Nicola Calipari had to lose his life in this operation.

Christian

Christian wrote:Marc,

Your post is grossly misleading.


Christian

My post may be grossly misleading because the official medias are grossly misleading. This sergeant was given as an example of American happy triggered troops and I am sorry I have no real way to challenge the kind of crappish information you get on TV News every day.

Marc,

Are you suggesting that French TV news would make such allegations without providing viewers with all the facts? Astonishing!
No wonder anti-American sentiments are at an all time high in Europe.

Christian

Stefan has been banned due to his repeated and offensive postings. I apologize to everyone for having to put up with them.

If you'll ban Stefan, how is 1871 still here? All he does on this forum is insult everyone.

Because as much as I wish, I am not God and don't have all knowing powers. I also have a day job (and some times all night too) and so I am not always able to keep up on everyones postings. I will look into him as well and see what the situation is as well.

1871 has been banned as well...