Mainz divided over Bush visit

[Beppo Schmidt]

The fact that you believe that Iraq is a great drain of American lives illustrates why so many fringe Anti-American lunatics believe that the US is vulnerable to attack and has no stomach for a real fight. They think they saw it cut and run from Lebanon and Somalia. If you are right, it will bail out of Iraq as well. Let us hope you are not.

I don't believe we should bail out of Iraq. I don't believe we should have gone there in the first place, but now that we are there I don't see a sudden withdrawal as an option. And speaking of anti-American lunatics, I have been called that myself simply for speaking against the current administration, so there's our great freedom for you.

[Mortimer]

I feel that a lot of strong points are made in this paticular forum
America has always been at war with someone. Even the birth of this country was it not founded on genocide? Ask any Native American he or she would be quick to tell a horror story or two. But Americans as a general populace are always fast to forget any evil deeds this country has commited. " We have God on our side " . I feel that telling people that God says it is a good thing to kill other people is utterly repugnant.
Now I will skip all of the other atrocoties and talk of the present ones. Since 911 the propaganda machine that is American media was pushed into overdrive feeding the flames of frenzy. Now we have new supervillans! We have orange and red alerts! News papers, Radio, televsion and even our music is at a feverpich of bellowing about Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein and how they are building weapons of mass destruction ready to detonate and destroy everything that we hold dear!
It could not have happened at a more perfect time for George W Bush. He had just obtained the presidency and that was in question. It seemed as if he had stolen the election by the use of rather nefarious dealings. In our great city of new york our trademark buildings were leveled and so were the thoughts of a stolen election. Now George is our fearless leader and undisputed King! Now he and his uber rich and megapowerful friends in office are free to do unspeakable acts without question. If you do question, you are unpatriotic and against the american way of life! That reminds me of something but I'm not sure what.

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DECLARES WAR ON TERRORISIM!

I think you know what happens next but if you do'nt please E-mail me or leave a post on the forum. If you would like proof of anything I have said. You can find it on the web. Or watch the documentory Farenheight 911
Thank you
Ashamed of our king.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Beppo,

The mere fact that you can freely express your disaproval of the US administration illustrates how much freedom you actually have.

Those of us living in democracies take this for granted. Iraqis who were not allowed any form of dissent under Saddam Hussein recently braved death to vote in numbers similar to US or UK elections. We belittle their sad experiences and considerable sacrifices if we belittle the freedoms we take for granted, however imperfect they may yet be.

Cheers,

Sid.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Mortimer,

No. The US was not founded on genocide. Some 90% of Amerindians died of European diseases that accompanied and/or preceded the Spanish. Northern European colonists arrived in a North America that had already lost the vast majority of its Amerindian population to disease. By the time French or British settlers reached the Mississippi valley all trace of the great Amerindian mound cities of the area had long been overgrown. It took archaeologists to rediscover them in the last century.

The USA gained independence at about the time Amerindian populations were starting to recover from the earlier disease attrition. Yes, it is true that many atrocities were committed by Americans on Native Americans, and some tribes died out completely, but this did not amount to the genocide of North America's Indians.

George Bush's election was entirely constitutional. If the constitution allows a president to be elected on a minority of the popular vote, it is hardly his fault! Nor is it as if that was the first time it had happened! The first time George Bush won on a minority of the popular vote and the second time on a majority vote. Both were entirely legal.

Furthermore, when the "hanging chad" recounts had finished in Florida, Bush's lead over Gore actually increased!

"Fahrenheit 911" was not a documentary. It was a political satire. Satire does not uphold the meticulous standards of academic research, or even the shoddier standards of journalism. Indeed, it doesn't even have to tell the truth to make its point.

Just as there are people with quite extreme views in the Bush administration, you are illustrating that there is reciprocal bigotry in the other camp.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Schuffert]

1871 wrote: "Where is the German Army context"


The phrase "Coalition Of The Willing" applies here I believe. As Gen. Schwarzkopf said, " Going to war without the French is like going hunting without your accordion", meaning that it's simply of no consequence. I think the same could be said of the German army in this context.

[dk88]

The truth will set you free. The war in Iraq with its small amount of casulties has demonstrated the lack of manpower that the Clinton years left us. The US should build up its active duty forces by 200 K and reserves by 50k at least.This would make available a larger pool of forces with the ability to tackle two occupations like the current ops in Iraq.A 2 year reserve conscription in the Military would be wise as well.
dk88

[Dackel Staffel]

Hi Dave,

If the US Army has lack of manpower, imagine in what kind of situation are the others countries in Europe. Only the Brits have a little something.

So long.

[sid guttridge]

Hi Dackel Staffel,

Not even the Brits! In today's Daily Telegraph there is a front page article about the damage done to the SAS by Iraq. Apparently there is so much money to be made in Iraq that 40% of the SAS have left the army to make big bucks out there working for private security companies. As a result the SAS is now in danger of running short of its most experienced operatives!

Furthermore, in the line infantry there are such serious shortages that recruits are being raised in Commonwealth countries to fill up the ranks. For example, I saw a Scottish regiment with dozens of Fijians alone.

There is a TV documentary series on at the moment about a tour by the Royal Horse Artillery in Iraq last year. They operated entirely as infantry - not a field gun in sight!

The Territorial Army is facing cuts because so many of its men declined to serve out there for fear of losing money, work or seniority in their normal civilian jobs.

It looks as though the US and UK are in their traditional historical situation of having regular armies that are too small to carry a major war for long. So I think the rest of the world can breathe easy.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Dackel Staffel]

Hi sid,

You, the englishmen are always late. Gunners used as infantry, in France, we did that since the Algeria war . One of my friend was in an artillery unit and his gun was ..... a Garand M1 grenade launcher. But my friend was really well armed :
A Garand M1 with 6 rifle grenades ( one clip) + normal ammunitions ( 8 clips)+several magazines for the FM ( light machine gun)+a Colt 1911 pistol ( 2 magazines). All he remembered of his service in Algeria ( 30 months it's very long) : it was very heavy to carry especially under the hot sun. He was the "lance patates" or "taters launcher" in english.

So long.

[Stefan]

According to a poll by the Mainzer Allgemeine Zeitung, nearly 79% of the population of Mainz are adamantly opposed to the planned visit of George W. Bush to their hometown, with only 15% in favor of it. Bush, regarded as the worlds worst warmonger by a vast majority of Europeans, has managed to offend even his most stubborn supporters here by demanding hyperbolic and ridiculous security measures. Air, land and ship traffic on Main and Rhein have been forbidden for February 23, transforming many Mainzer, Wiesbadener and Frankfurter to prisoners in their own homes. Schools, gyms, restaurants, stores and factories are to be closed, sewer entrances to be welded shut and all public garbage cans to be removed. Those citizens living near Bushs route of travel must remove their cars and garbage cans from the street and are not allowed to enter their front yards. "That ****** Bush is making a ghost town of our city", a resident complained. "I don't care whether he is a guest of state. Nobody of us invited him over."

http://www.main-rheiner.de/welt/bush/
http://onnachrichten.t-online.de/c/34/5 ... 54758.html
http://www.frankfurter-rundschau.de/res ... cnt=631913

[sid guttridge]

Hi Stefan,

Bush isn't invading Mainz. If somebody important in Germany hadn't invited him he wouldn't be going there.

The noble citizens of Mainz should look upon their hosting of Bush's visit, which you make sound like the passage of Genghis Khan, as a public service they are doing for the rest of Germany. After all, if Bush is in Mainz he cannot be elsewhere, disrupting the lives of citizens in some other German city.

Hail to heroic Mainz, apparently soon to be the Baghdad of Europe!

Cheers,

Sid.

[Stefan]

Germanys most respected elder statesman, former Bundeskanzler Helmut Schmidt, has joined in the criticism of Bushs visit. "We Europeans don't want to be Americas vassals, we want to preserve our dignity," Schmidt - once a staunch atlanticist and one of the fathers of NATOs 1979 double track decision - writes in his column for Die Zeit. "The Unites States are transforming the alliance into a mere instrument of their Mid East policy. But the pact has no mandate to spread democracy beyond its clear defined geographic boundaries, and no member is obliged to cooperate in such a scheme." Relating to the recent charme offensive by Bush, Rice and Rumsfeld, Schmidt writes: "This is the old story of the wolf and the seven little goats. The wolf has eaten chalk in order to make his voice sound friendlier, but he is still the same wolf. Bush is only looking for someone to help him out of his troubles in Iraq."

http://www.zeit.de/politik/Vorabmeldungen/2005/vorab_08

[Reb]

Stefan

"Germanys most respected elder statesman, former Bundeskanzler Helmut Schmidt, has joined in the criticism of Bushs visit. "We Europeans don't want to be Americas vassals, we want to preserve our dignity,"

Isn't it a bit late to be worried about your dignity? It didn't seem to matter so much for the 30 or 40 years when Ivan's tank armies were sitting on your border! When your troops and ours stood shoulder to shoulder in the Fulda gap did that make you our vassals? Or we were yours? Perhaps neither eh? Perhaps we were just allies?

Personally, I don't much care for Bush myself (I despise politicians who spend money they don't have - by stealing it from me)- but I find such a statement as Schmidt's pretty darn disingenous.

Being historically minded - I have no problem with Germany and France sitting out a war where they don't identify any self interest. But I'm just a bit nauseated by the moralistic posturing. (ours as much as yours)

My own personal wish is that the US had sat out the First World War - then perhaps we could have avoided the rise of the modern all pervasive state. But I seem to recall France and Germany both were clamoring for our intervention. And both had all sorts of high toned moral reasons why we should take their side.

As to Iraq? Let's just say I don't lose a lot of sleep worrying about Islamic terrorists - neither before nor after the war. Nor do I care how other people's govts treat them other than turning up my nose at the more disgusting examples. To me, since we didn't nuke Stalin - I can not imagine why we bothered with a pimple like Sadaam. But that's just me and the big shots are in control of who to fight.

And unless Europe can erase many centuries of cabinet wars, religious wars, colonial wars and wars just to see who was toughest - well, lets have a little less of that moralistic rhetoric please.

cheers
Reb

[sid guttridge]

Hi Stefan,

Who is Helmut Schmidt to speak for "We Europeans"? Who elected him spokesman?

This is the sort of self-appointed arrogance that makes many Europeans fear the EU as more of a threat to their independence than the USA.

After all, it is not the USA that is constitutionally seeking to curtail individual European countries from pursuing independent diplomatic, economic, military of foreign policies, is it?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Stefan]

Who is Helmut Schmidt to speak for "We Europeans"? Who elected him spokesman?

Well, perhaps the same people who elected George W. Butcher to the official post of speaker of "the civilized world"? As Condie Lice put it today, "it is not the United States" that is threatening to attack Syria and Iran, but "the whole international community". Well, I didn't see any Eskimos or Aboriginals kick in the doors of Fallujah's hospitals, and if Bush's world is "civilized", I would prefer to have remained a Neandertaler. But I have to acknowledge, "speaker of the free world" sounds a lot better than "puppet of a greedy clique of imperialist tycoons", and claiming to be fighting in a "coalition" consisting of I, me & myself makes me feel better when bombing mosques ... And when the Korean peninsula blows up into a giant mushroom, you will hear George Butcher whine: "Sorry, lads ... but you had no oil!"