Erich Hartmann

Rosselsprung · Post by **Rosselsprung** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:36 pm

I just found some information on Erich Hartmann on the internet, and there are some discrepancies. Did he really shoot down 6 P-51 Mustangs over Romania? It's hard to see a single Me-109 knocking down a few Mustang, let alone 6. Also, about his war crimes trial. It's rather vague as to what his crime was. Did he intentionally strafe civillians or refugees?

krichter33 · Post by **krichter33** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:32 am

Hartmann did shoot down 6 Mustangs over Rumania, I believe in two missions, maybe three. As far as the war crimes trial goes, that was a kangaroo court by the Soviets, used for propaganda. I don't believe Hartmann purposely strafed civilians.

Alex Dekker · Post by **Alex Dekker** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:59 am

Hartmann was tried as almost all other German prisoners. He was captured, so he was guilty. He also had a price on his head (10,000 roebel). Most prisoners were tried for 25 years of hard labor. It was a common thing. Some guys were lucky: they got only 10 years. A realtively small group was released in 1946/1947. The following years more POW's were sent back to Germany. In 1949 the Kremlin stated that only German 'warcriminals' served time in Russian camps. Among them also Erich Hartmann. Thanks to Adenauer could those 'warcriminals' return to Germany during the mid-fifties.

Alex D.

PS When did Hartmann die? I only got his year of birth: 1922.

krichter33 · Post by **krichter33** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:36 pm

I believe Hartmann died in 1993.

Marxbrunner · Post by **Marxbrunner** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:09 pm

I have a Biography of him called "Holt Hartmann vom Himmel" (Get Hartmann out of the sky). Honestly said; it´s a crapy book (the young-and-very-brave-German-boy-fights-against-the-very-bad-soviets-blahblah..) but very informative.
About the trial: In the book he is accused of attacking a russian Food-Factory around Smolensk; after he proved the fact that he never flown in that area he was accused of killing civilians because his bullets droped down to earth allways when he missed a russian plane.

After years in prison he returned to Germany "unbroken and upright" (the book said that; but a friend of my father had met him a few times in the early 1970th; Hartmann was alway drunk and the only topics he could talk about were killing the russians and f...... the woman)

Lorenz · Post by **Lorenz** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:40 am

Marxbrunner wrote:
.....but a friend of my father had met him a few times in the early 1970th; Hartmann was alway drunk and the only topics he could talk about were killing the russians and f...... the woman).

YIKES! That's an entirely different version of Bubi from anything I've ever read before. He was here in the States dozens of times right up until his death, first with the Bundesluftwaffe, then on business, and then as a guest of the American Fighter Pilots' Association to attend seminars, meetings, book-signing events, etc., etc. He was described in the media by a multitude of different people over those years as somewhat shy, reticent, self-effacing, very polite, soft-spoken and the very antithesis of a hell-raising, hard-drinking, woman-chasing whoremonger. He was said to be an unusually devoted husband and father who still loved his wife as much as he did the date they were married. I wonder if we are talking about the same Erich Hartmann (*19.04.1922 in Weissach/Württemberg) (RK, EL, S)? Are all of these accounts wrong? The only negative thing I ever read about him was that he was a lousy officer in the postwar Bundesluftwaffe and that any promotion he received above Major was an act of charity (he retired an Oberst, I believe). He was said to be too retiring and soft-spoken to be a good leader and manager, and that he was ineffectual in just about every job he was given. Galland and Steinhoff both said at one time or another that after the war he was always focused on his family and not on his job, and even seemed a little "disturbed" as a result of his wartime and P/W experiences.

FWIW,

--Lorenz

Spandau · Post by **Spandau** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 10:09 am

Marxbrunner wrote: Hartmann was alway drunk and the only topics he could talk about were killing the russians and f...... the woman)

Avete,

I have heard NOTHING of the like! I've read quite a bit about him, and he has been described many times as a respectful gentlemen. He was not proud of killing Russians and he certainly wasn't a man-whore. The very emblem on his Bf 109 represented his devotion to his wife, and I 'm not sure but I don't think he even liked alchohol. Are you quite sure this was THE Erich Hartmann?

Valete,

-Spandau