Rommel didn't have general-staff training, either, Helmut. And neither did Sepp Dietrich, for that matter.
Perhaps just plain common sense plays a role in making an "untutored" man into an effective combat commander, though there are limits in how high an "untutored" fellow can rise and still be effective. Eicke was never tried as a corps commander, though he may have had the tools for that. According to what I've read, Dietrich could at best command a division; a corps and later a panzer army were beyond his abilities.
Yours,
Paul
Theodor Eicke
I agree with you about Dietrich but while Rommel didn't have General Staff Training he did have formal military training which I have never heard that Eicke had. It appears to me that Eicke had common sense and from what I read was able , to a certain extent to teach himself. Having been a career Army Officer myself, I feel this makes him worthy of some respect on that point alone since teaching yourself to command a Division isn't the easiest thing in the world to do. Furthermore, Rommel commanded a platoon, Company Battalion etc before commanding a Division. Eicke went directly to Division level. I think we can agree that makes it a little harder .
Regards,
Helmut
Regards,
Helmut
Fascinating. This is my favorite kind of discussion, Helmut.
I'll grant that Rommel certainly had time with the troops, even if he didn't have general-staff training. Perhaps in his case, it wasn't necessary, because he was "all soldier".
Oh, BTW, I found a webpage on Eicke, and here's his pre-WWI and WWI career: http://www.wwiirelics.com/Eicke.htm
Quoting: "Entered Imperial Army as volunteer, 1909. Assigned to Inf.Rgt. 23 `König Ferdinand der Bulgaren' (Landau / Rheinland-Pfalz) until 1913. Transferred to Inf.Rgt. 3 `Prinz Karl von Bayern' to 08.1914. Then served with Inf.Rgt. 22 `Fürst Wilhelm von Hohenzollern'. Moved to the artillery branch, serving in Bayr.Fußartillerie-Rgt. 2 from 1916 to 1917. A paymaster, his final duty was with the replacement machine gun company of II.Armee-Korps. He was discharged as an Unterzahlmeister, 1.03.1919."
You have to scroll down to read the original, Helmut.
Yours,
Paul
I'll grant that Rommel certainly had time with the troops, even if he didn't have general-staff training. Perhaps in his case, it wasn't necessary, because he was "all soldier".
Oh, BTW, I found a webpage on Eicke, and here's his pre-WWI and WWI career: http://www.wwiirelics.com/Eicke.htm
Quoting: "Entered Imperial Army as volunteer, 1909. Assigned to Inf.Rgt. 23 `König Ferdinand der Bulgaren' (Landau / Rheinland-Pfalz) until 1913. Transferred to Inf.Rgt. 3 `Prinz Karl von Bayern' to 08.1914. Then served with Inf.Rgt. 22 `Fürst Wilhelm von Hohenzollern'. Moved to the artillery branch, serving in Bayr.Fußartillerie-Rgt. 2 from 1916 to 1917. A paymaster, his final duty was with the replacement machine gun company of II.Armee-Korps. He was discharged as an Unterzahlmeister, 1.03.1919."
You have to scroll down to read the original, Helmut.
Yours,
Paul
Hi Paul,
I also enjoy these types of coversations. I am very surprised that this one has stayes civil. No one has expressed outrage that we could be discussing someone as "evil" as Eicke without stating how "evil" he was.
I wnnt to the site and note he was discharged as Unterzahlmeister. Is this a commisioned or enlisted rank, do you know?
Thanks for all your info.
Regards,
Helmut
I also enjoy these types of coversations. I am very surprised that this one has stayes civil. No one has expressed outrage that we could be discussing someone as "evil" as Eicke without stating how "evil" he was.
I wnnt to the site and note he was discharged as Unterzahlmeister. Is this a commisioned or enlisted rank, do you know?
Thanks for all your info.
Regards,
Helmut
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LexLothar
Sorry, Helmut, but I don't know what sort of rank "Unterzahlmeister" is. If I may hazard a guess, it's a warrant-officer rank; not quite a commissioned officer, but not a sergeant equivalent, either.
Perhaps someone else can tell us?
If I don't speak of Eicke's "evilness", Helmut, it's because I believe in giving the Devil his due. Sometimes, my bent for objectivity has shocked some people, but I pride myself on being a person who can look at everything in a man's (or woman's) life, and not just judge on one thing, or a few things.
Yours,
Paul
Perhaps someone else can tell us?
If I don't speak of Eicke's "evilness", Helmut, it's because I believe in giving the Devil his due. Sometimes, my bent for objectivity has shocked some people, but I pride myself on being a person who can look at everything in a man's (or woman's) life, and not just judge on one thing, or a few things.
Yours,
Paul
Paul_9686 wrote:Sorry, Helmut, but I don't know what sort of rank "Unterzahlmeister" is. If I may hazard a guess, it's a warrant-officer rank; not quite a commissioned officer, but not a sergeant equivalent, either.
Perhaps someone else can tell us?
If I don't speak of Eicke's "evilness", Helmut, it's because I believe in giving the Devil his due. Sometimes, my bent for objectivity has shocked some people, but I pride myself on being a person who can look at everything in a man's (or woman's) life, and not just judge on one thing, or a few things.
Yours,
Paul
Hi Paul,
From your message quoted above I believe we are kindred spirits and see eye to eye. I believe you cannot judge history in moral terms. You have to look at it in the context of it's time. I also do not have to agree with what a person did or said but I try to see what it meant in context .
Servus,
Helmut
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LexLothar
One of a type of Beamte most folks think pay officer of finance officer right away. Actually these guys has a sort of S4 logistics function as well as pay. Zahlmeister were military officials known as Beamter as opposed to active soldiers. After 12 years of service. NCOs could apply for training as a Zahlmeister. After going through a probationary period as "Unterzahlmeister" they would be appointed as Zahlmeister. This was an appointment as an official and not as a soldier, comparable in rank to a "Leutnant".
Eicke was respected for his methods and training of guards. Himmler regarded him once as saying that he "did not care for the brutish measures Eicke employs". Certainly this came from his efficiency in running the camps and his system of guard training. The added personal touch of Eicke set in motion the totenkampfverbande, since Dachau was the first camp in Germany, others were modeled after it (thus Eicke was the model for future camp kommandants such as Hoess and etc, however each individual kommandant used his own paticular style etc for running his own camp.) Eicke was the first, I believe that is why he advanced so readily.....he knew what worked to run an efficient and hard, regimentled and disciplined guard system, the type that the SS loved so much. Why was Eicke so loved by his men? Its interesting to think of because the officer/enlisted gap was very very large in the German military and surrounding infrastructure (where NCO's were much closer to the regular men then were officers). Personally I believe the relationship was formed because of the very nature of the work done (camp guards). The regular guards were afforded the opportunity to be around and converse with Eicke and have a more personal and closer tie to him. Even today, guards in prison know the warden and and may have close ties to him or be briefed daily on what needs to be done. Overall the reason I give for Eicke's popularity of the men: he knew the men were the ones keeping and maintaining order in his camp, thus he treated them accordingly. Had he lived would he have taken Heydrichs place or another top level official? Most likely not...Himmler detested the man, but that is not to say he was not high ranking and a very strong central figure in the SS in HIS OWN RIGHT. Very good topic
Eicke was respected for his methods and training of guards. Himmler regarded him once as saying that he "did not care for the brutish measures Eicke employs". Certainly this came from his efficiency in running the camps and his system of guard training. The added personal touch of Eicke set in motion the totenkampfverbande, since Dachau was the first camp in Germany, others were modeled after it (thus Eicke was the model for future camp kommandants such as Hoess and etc, however each individual kommandant used his own paticular style etc for running his own camp.) Eicke was the first, I believe that is why he advanced so readily.....he knew what worked to run an efficient and hard, regimentled and disciplined guard system, the type that the SS loved so much. Why was Eicke so loved by his men? Its interesting to think of because the officer/enlisted gap was very very large in the German military and surrounding infrastructure (where NCO's were much closer to the regular men then were officers). Personally I believe the relationship was formed because of the very nature of the work done (camp guards). The regular guards were afforded the opportunity to be around and converse with Eicke and have a more personal and closer tie to him. Even today, guards in prison know the warden and and may have close ties to him or be briefed daily on what needs to be done. Overall the reason I give for Eicke's popularity of the men: he knew the men were the ones keeping and maintaining order in his camp, thus he treated them accordingly. Had he lived would he have taken Heydrichs place or another top level official? Most likely not...Himmler detested the man, but that is not to say he was not high ranking and a very strong central figure in the SS in HIS OWN RIGHT. Very good topic
Oh, yes, he was a paymaster, and that would imply being an "Army official", and not an active-duty soldier, Lex.
I can well imagine the guards all being close, after all, they were doing a job one might describe thusly: "Well, it's a dirty job, all right, but somebody's got to do it."
Didn't Eicke once say something to the effect that if someone couldn't take being a concentration-camp guard, he'd better retire to a monastery? And hasn't he been described somewhere as an atheist?
Helmut, I'd certainly agree we must be kindred spirits.
Yours,
Paul
I can well imagine the guards all being close, after all, they were doing a job one might describe thusly: "Well, it's a dirty job, all right, but somebody's got to do it."
Didn't Eicke once say something to the effect that if someone couldn't take being a concentration-camp guard, he'd better retire to a monastery? And hasn't he been described somewhere as an atheist?
Helmut, I'd certainly agree we must be kindred spirits.
Yours,
Paul
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LexLothar
As far as I know...his religious preference was Catholic....but I cant confirm it.
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TH Albright
- Supporter
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 5:35 am
Gentlemen...one thing we must remember, is that Eicke's "camp guards" were almost fully militarized units whose junior officer leadership by 1937-38 was heavily populated by SS-Juncherschulen graduates and some ex-SS-Verfugungstruppe officers. Providing perimeter security for the camp and outside labor details only occupied one week per month on a rotating unit basis; the remainder of the time being devoted to political and military training. Unlike American or British prisons, there was a strong functional distinction between the "guards" and camp staff elements, who actually administered the camp and enforced discipline, etc. No American prison would have an infantry battalion ,or later regiment, garrisoned outside its walls to provide security! Perhaps an imperfect "analogy" to the SS-Totenkopfstandarten would be if a local American National Guard or Army Reserve unit was assigned to a nearby Federal Prison to provide guards for the towers and extended security perimeter, while it also did its normal training routine; the Bureau of Prisons personnel would run the cell blocks, oversee administration, and prisoner affairs. The big difference: what Eicke did with the KL system was incorporate this functional difference under one organizational roof, the SS-Totenkopfverbande and Inspectorate of Concentration Camps. He had a private army and control of the SS "protective custody" system, a personal empire within the SS designed to combat both external and internal "enemies" of the Reich. This also gave him personnel flexibility so that he could upgrade the guard units by bringing in officers from other SS organizations, mainly the SS-VT, and also transfer less qualified, older, or more specialized men to camp staff positions. The guard units were not the real "jailors" per se, the camp staff were what we would identify in the US or UK has the "hacks".
Oh, so you mean that the camp guards were intended from almost the very start to be a kind of "reserve" outfit for war duty? Fascinating, TH.
Now I remember--the SS-Heimwehr Danzig was formed from Totenkopf troops, and they also helped provide troops for the early SS-Division Nord (before it became a mountain division) and the earliest SS cavalry units, which later became the SS Cavalry Division Florian Geyer.
Thanks for pointing this out.
Yours,
Paul
PS: And didn't they provide troops for the Einsatzgruppen, too?
P.
Now I remember--the SS-Heimwehr Danzig was formed from Totenkopf troops, and they also helped provide troops for the early SS-Division Nord (before it became a mountain division) and the earliest SS cavalry units, which later became the SS Cavalry Division Florian Geyer.
Thanks for pointing this out.
Yours,
Paul
PS: And didn't they provide troops for the Einsatzgruppen, too?
P.
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LexLothar