I was reading a copy of a book i hadnt picked up in a long time.
Its called 'TIGER' the history of a legendary weapon. Its by Egon Kleine and Volkmar Kuhn.
It is a fantastic book, but there is one photo that i looked at again and again.
It is on page 140 and i think its taken by one of the members of sPzAbt.505 during the retreat of October-December 1943.
The caption under the photo reads: "This is how the roads looked during the retreat."
The photo shows the German vans, cars and motorcycles edging through thousands of Ukranian refugee's on carts, horses and on foot.
What was the retreat really like? I mean the official line is that the Russians were to liberate the opressed Ukranians, Belorussians and Crimean's from the brutal oppresion of the Germans.
The people in the photo are escaping with the Germans. Is this true of the majority of Ukranians? Is this just a minority of the population escaping?
What is the truth about the occupation of the Ukraine etc?
Regards, Jez.
Vet info....
Moderator: Tom Houlihan
Fleeing the Red Army
Jez, the occupation of the Ukraine is a story of moronic mistakes, racial idiocy, and just plain dumbness.
99.9% of the German soldiers who faught in that land and crossed it at least twice, knew very little of how badly the civilian population was treated by the political arms of the German Reich. Aside from squeezing every possible amount of food from the farming units (the kolkhoses), the promised land reform never materialized. The result, of course, was (in the beginning) disappointment, and later outright but sporadic partisan warfare.
The pictures you mentioned are not false. The Unkrainians hated and feared the Soviet system even more then they wanted to get rid of the German occupation. Thus, hundreds of thousands fled to the West by any and all means; this resulted in vast and miserable camps in Poland and the German Reich itself. I venture to say that, with the exception of a relatively small number of volunteers, very few Unkrainians volunteered for anti-Soviet military service; they wanted to be treated as humans in a freer society; a society freer than the Soviet regime.
Their fear of the Communist system proved to be on solid grounds; Nikita Khrushchev (sp?) proved his worth as the "Butcher of the Ukraine". He has millions of his fellow Ukrainians on his conscience. Their fear of the Soviet system was justified in the extreme. There were some volunteer outfits raised from the Ukrainian population, but they were in the minority.
A sad chapter indeed; especially so when you bear in mind the almost unbelievable fruitfulness of the land, and the richness of its natural resources. With real German help and teaching (then) modern farming methods, this land could have become a veritabel paradise, feeding just about all of Europe.
That's my impression, Jez. Joscha
99.9% of the German soldiers who faught in that land and crossed it at least twice, knew very little of how badly the civilian population was treated by the political arms of the German Reich. Aside from squeezing every possible amount of food from the farming units (the kolkhoses), the promised land reform never materialized. The result, of course, was (in the beginning) disappointment, and later outright but sporadic partisan warfare.
The pictures you mentioned are not false. The Unkrainians hated and feared the Soviet system even more then they wanted to get rid of the German occupation. Thus, hundreds of thousands fled to the West by any and all means; this resulted in vast and miserable camps in Poland and the German Reich itself. I venture to say that, with the exception of a relatively small number of volunteers, very few Unkrainians volunteered for anti-Soviet military service; they wanted to be treated as humans in a freer society; a society freer than the Soviet regime.
Their fear of the Communist system proved to be on solid grounds; Nikita Khrushchev (sp?) proved his worth as the "Butcher of the Ukraine". He has millions of his fellow Ukrainians on his conscience. Their fear of the Soviet system was justified in the extreme. There were some volunteer outfits raised from the Ukrainian population, but they were in the minority.
A sad chapter indeed; especially so when you bear in mind the almost unbelievable fruitfulness of the land, and the richness of its natural resources. With real German help and teaching (then) modern farming methods, this land could have become a veritabel paradise, feeding just about all of Europe.
That's my impression, Jez. Joscha
Thankyou for sharing that with us Joscha,
it certainly explains the scene that is depicted on the photograph.
What happened to the poor souls that were in the refugee camps in Poland? were they over run by the Soviets at the wars end and if so what was their ultimate fate?
I have read briefly about a Ukranian Nationlist Underground Army operating against the Soviets when they overran German held Ukraine, has anyone any information on this?
regards, Jez.
it certainly explains the scene that is depicted on the photograph.
What happened to the poor souls that were in the refugee camps in Poland? were they over run by the Soviets at the wars end and if so what was their ultimate fate?
I have read briefly about a Ukranian Nationlist Underground Army operating against the Soviets when they overran German held Ukraine, has anyone any information on this?
regards, Jez.
Good synopsis Joscha
That was a great synopsis of the Ukraine theater. It is indeed unknown to many people how much the Ukranian people hated communism and willingly wanted to help what some ukranians saw the Germans as there liberators. Sadly racial mythology had already tainted the Ukranians as untermenschen and they paid the price. It strikes me that people are always saying how bad Nazism is and it was but Communism was by far the worst scourge that affected the 20th century. I will always hate and despeise the Communists for what they did to East Berlin and East Germany. Good post again and have a great day!!!!
Zu Befehl!! Herr Feldmarshall
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schwedi
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I must say something to you!!
It is not an joke or something else that the communists killed more Russians and War Prisioners in Sibiria then the German killed Jews in their Camps!!
I dont want to say with that the Nazis were angels!!
I hate Hitler and his Nazi-Regime, I hate it more than anything elese in the world!!
And I am glad that he has killed himself and that, even, the communists have taken over the Third Reich!!
They werent angels!! The Russians too, but they saw everything apart from their policy!! Some bits they did well for my country and for the country witch they conquered!!
It is not an joke or something else that the communists killed more Russians and War Prisioners in Sibiria then the German killed Jews in their Camps!!
I dont want to say with that the Nazis were angels!!
I hate Hitler and his Nazi-Regime, I hate it more than anything elese in the world!!
And I am glad that he has killed himself and that, even, the communists have taken over the Third Reich!!
They werent angels!! The Russians too, but they saw everything apart from their policy!! Some bits they did well for my country and for the country witch they conquered!!
Sterben ist eine Sache, überleben eine andere!
Michael Schwed
Michael Schwed
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schwedi
- Supporter
- Posts: 71
- Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 8:56 am
- Location: Austria, near Vienna
- Contact:
I must say something to you!!
It is not an joke or something else that the communists killed more Russians and War Prisioners in Sibiria then the German killed Jews in their Camps!!
I dont want to say with that the Nazis were angels!!
I hate Hitler and his Nazi-Regime, I hate it more than anything elese in the world!!
And I am glad that he has killed himself and that, even, the communists have taken over the Third Reich!!
They werent angels!! The Russians too, but they saw everything apart from their policy!! Some bits they did well for my country and for the country witch they conquered!!
It is not an joke or something else that the communists killed more Russians and War Prisioners in Sibiria then the German killed Jews in their Camps!!
I dont want to say with that the Nazis were angels!!
I hate Hitler and his Nazi-Regime, I hate it more than anything elese in the world!!
And I am glad that he has killed himself and that, even, the communists have taken over the Third Reich!!
They werent angels!! The Russians too, but they saw everything apart from their policy!! Some bits they did well for my country and for the country witch they conquered!!
Sterben ist eine Sache, überleben eine andere!
Michael Schwed
Michael Schwed