hello
I've read that general Groener has dissolved the great Generalstaff 19th january, 1919, and that he didi it spontaneously.
I'm wandering why he did not wait for the order of the Allies to do it. Could he then know or suppose that the ALlies would dissolve it?
If not, what was his intention in doing so? Must the Great Generalstaff be protected from something?
Could someone please illuminate me?
Vincent
the end of the Great Generalstaff in 1919
I can't comment on the dissolution of the German General Staff in the immediate aftermath of the Armistice (or at least, I can't authoritatively). One might speculate that it was done rather like the Kaiser's abdication -- as an attempt to shed responsibility for the war and get "fair treatment" under Wilson's Fourteen Points at the coming Paris Peace Conference. Apparently, the German people were surprised that they weren't allowed to just "declare bankrupcy" (as it were) and walk away from the war blameless and without responsibilty.
What I can say is that by the time the Reichsheer was functioning a reconstituted general staff was hidden within the administration of the new army under the title the "truppenampt" (roughly - "troop office"). The general staff officers with the troops were refered to as "staff helpers" (I forget the cumbersome German). Apparently it wasn't long before the old terms were being freely used except when Allied observers were actually present.
What I can say is that by the time the Reichsheer was functioning a reconstituted general staff was hidden within the administration of the new army under the title the "truppenampt" (roughly - "troop office"). The general staff officers with the troops were refered to as "staff helpers" (I forget the cumbersome German). Apparently it wasn't long before the old terms were being freely used except when Allied observers were actually present.
Thanks for your repply!
I began to tell me that the "Reichswehr" forum was dead...
Somehow, someone told me that the Great General Staff was not dissolved until it was renammed in TA, Truppenamt, on octobre 1st, 1919.
It seems that the sources I've read and spoke about the dissolution of The Great General Staff in january are wrong...
I began to tell me that the "Reichswehr" forum was dead...
Somehow, someone told me that the Great General Staff was not dissolved until it was renammed in TA, Truppenamt, on octobre 1st, 1919.
It seems that the sources I've read and spoke about the dissolution of The Great General Staff in january are wrong...
- Freiritter
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Right, the Great General Staff is disbanded as part of article 160 of the Treaty... And that comes into effectiveness on october 1st, 1919, when he becomes the Truppenamt.
I was not sure if the Great General Staff was disbanded before (january 19th, 1919, as I've seen twice), but it do not appear to be the case...
What was his real name? Höh.Generalstab? Höh. Heeresleitung?
I was not sure if the Great General Staff was disbanded before (january 19th, 1919, as I've seen twice), but it do not appear to be the case...
What was his real name? Höh.Generalstab? Höh. Heeresleitung?
The real name for the First World War German General Staff?leopard 2 wrote:What was his real name? Höh.Generalstab? Höh. Heeresleitung?
Was it not the "Grosser Generalstab", the "Greater General Staff". When the modern German state was created by Bismark, what had been the Prussian General Staff, was transformed into the generalstaff for "Greater Germany".
Actually, this could become a new thread. Correct me if I'm wrong here: technically, the Kaiser's Reich did not have a single army. It had (four I seem to recall?) seperate ones -- the Prussian/German army, the Bavarian, Wurtemburg? one other? The Grosser Generalstab in Berlin set common standards, but technically they were seperate armies.
This curious sounding arrangement reflected the political structure of the Kaiser's Reich. The Kaiser was both king of Prussia (which remained a state within the Reich) and "Kaiser" of the Reich (ie Emporer of the German Empire). The Empire consisted of all the German states united by Bismark, all (most?) of which kept their native royal houses and other titled aristocracy. Most of the minor states had princes, but a few of the bigger ones (Bavaria for instance) had kings. These remained, with the new Kaiser supreme over all. But the bigger ones still had their own armies, and the officers of those armies received their commissions from their own kings, although I believe they also had to swear an additional oath to the Kaiser as well.
As I recall, the officers of all the armies within the Recih were eligible to apply for the Grosser Generalstab, although it was certainly dominated by officers from the Prussian army. In any case, the central staff in Berlin set common training, equipment, uniform (other than accoutrements) standards, and obviously central operation command.
Anyone in this forum confirm or deny this, which I'm rummaging around in the back drawer of my memory for?
- Freiritter
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I think you're right about the WWI era German Army. Only the Navy was actually an Imperial service branch. I also got the impression that, politically, Hohenzollern Germany was a confederation of German states under the Imperial throne and the Reichstag.
Cordially,
Freiritter
Cordially,
Freiritter
Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.
Thank you for showing some interest in this post!
Some addition to what PaulJ said: the 4th part of the german army was the Saxon (Saxe, I don't know how it's called in English) one. The four armies were dependants of their country (Land) but in wartime, they come under the Kaiser's autority.
http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Re ... emagne.htm
This site is in french, but it's well!!!
Freiritter, I don't know many things about the Navy... It seems that there is no difference between some german navy and some prussian navy because none of the three other armies have sea costs!? So, was it called german (Reich) navy or what?
Some addition to what PaulJ said: the 4th part of the german army was the Saxon (Saxe, I don't know how it's called in English) one. The four armies were dependants of their country (Land) but in wartime, they come under the Kaiser's autority.
http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Re ... emagne.htm
This site is in french, but it's well!!!
Freiritter, I don't know many things about the Navy... It seems that there is no difference between some german navy and some prussian navy because none of the three other armies have sea costs!? So, was it called german (Reich) navy or what?
- Freiritter
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hi everybody
I think I've seen some things that may be mixed together for some exlain: on june 25th/26th 1919, Hindenburg retires, and he's followed on june 30th by Groener... Ebert designs the new "commander" of the army... commander has to be understood as first militaryman in Germany: Hans von Seeckt.
On july 4th/5th, the "Volkskommission für des Friedenheeres" is created and is given to von Seeckt, with 8 other officers.
Some sources states that von Seeckt becomes Chief of the Great General Staff on this July 4th/5th...
So, do we have to understand that The Great General Staff is not really disbanded and is just transformed into this commission for the peacetime army? That this commission becomes the TA on october 1919?
What do you think about it? Do I forget some other elements? Do I mistake?
I think I've seen some things that may be mixed together for some exlain: on june 25th/26th 1919, Hindenburg retires, and he's followed on june 30th by Groener... Ebert designs the new "commander" of the army... commander has to be understood as first militaryman in Germany: Hans von Seeckt.
On july 4th/5th, the "Volkskommission für des Friedenheeres" is created and is given to von Seeckt, with 8 other officers.
Some sources states that von Seeckt becomes Chief of the Great General Staff on this July 4th/5th...
So, do we have to understand that The Great General Staff is not really disbanded and is just transformed into this commission for the peacetime army? That this commission becomes the TA on october 1919?
What do you think about it? Do I forget some other elements? Do I mistake?
I've just been reading on old classic on this theme -- J.D. Hittle's The Military Staff: It's History and Development (Stackpole, 3rd Edition 1961)
Hittle was a USMC Colonel, who during WW II was posted to the Marine Corps Schools as an instructor. There he was surprised to discover that he could find no single work covering the history of staff systems which satisfied him, and wound up compiling one himself. The result was the first edition of his book, originally published in 1944. His book traces the history of the German, French, British, US and Russian staff systems.
To quote from it about the interwar German General Staff:
The Allied leaders fully realized the importance of the general staff in the German scheme of war, and this realization was translated into positive, but ultimately ineffectual, action in the terms of peace imposed on the defeated Germans. In these terms it was stipulated that the Great General was to be abolished. While forbidding the existence of the Great General Staff, the Treaty of Versailles permitted the continued existence of the staff officers continued their duties, still wearing their old insignia, thus forming an effective means of keeping alive the methods and traditions of the general staff during the years that passed between the Treaty of Versailles and the rearmament of Germany.
It was von Seeckt, the German military leader of the post World War I period, who fought constantly for the effective continuation of the staff system. While the staffs of the ten Reichwehr divisions provided the personnel basis for the maintenance of the staff, this alone was not sufficient to perpetuate the staff knowledge which had been so deliberately and laboriously created through the course of Prussian military evolution.
Hittle was a USMC Colonel, who during WW II was posted to the Marine Corps Schools as an instructor. There he was surprised to discover that he could find no single work covering the history of staff systems which satisfied him, and wound up compiling one himself. The result was the first edition of his book, originally published in 1944. His book traces the history of the German, French, British, US and Russian staff systems.
To quote from it about the interwar German General Staff:
The Allied leaders fully realized the importance of the general staff in the German scheme of war, and this realization was translated into positive, but ultimately ineffectual, action in the terms of peace imposed on the defeated Germans. In these terms it was stipulated that the Great General was to be abolished. While forbidding the existence of the Great General Staff, the Treaty of Versailles permitted the continued existence of the staff officers continued their duties, still wearing their old insignia, thus forming an effective means of keeping alive the methods and traditions of the general staff during the years that passed between the Treaty of Versailles and the rearmament of Germany.
It was von Seeckt, the German military leader of the post World War I period, who fought constantly for the effective continuation of the staff system. While the staffs of the ten Reichwehr divisions provided the personnel basis for the maintenance of the staff, this alone was not sufficient to perpetuate the staff knowledge which had been so deliberately and laboriously created through the course of Prussian military evolution.