Hungarian and Romanian casualties in the East

[Stephen]

Actually I had re-read it and this was going to be my reply.

First let me apologize for the misstatement I made on the 2nd Army from Niehorster’s book. As I mentioned, I was in a rush when I was looking for these numbers (this is a poor excuse) and what I did was add the numbers for the 2nd Army and Security forces together. The casualty numbers still add up the same, but should look like this, 2nd Army 154,000 (4/42-2/43), Security forces 22,000 (6/42-2/43). I was only using Dr. Niehorsters numbers as a counterpoint to the German figures, because it is considered a very well researched book.

Best wishes,
Steve

[laszlo.nemedi]

One more source:

Szabó Péter (writer of the Don kanyar book/fate of the 2nd army at the Don) and Számvéber Norbert (military archiver, and writer of many books, like Konrad 3, Alföldi páncélos csata/Debrecen tank battle):
A keleti hadszintér és Magyarország

In the end they referred an unnamed Soviet summary of the Hungarian losses (KIA+MIA) 350,000 and POW 513,000 (however it can contain civilians too).

I will ask Számvéber Norbert about this source...

[Groscurth]

DP

[Csaba Becze]

The 176 000 for the all Hungarian units' losses between 04 1942-04-1943 also impossible.
The 2nd Hungarian Army's losses were less, than 130 000 in this period (KIA, MIA, WIA, incl Jewish labour workers)

[Leo Niehorster]

Code: Select all

Hungarian Casualties: 24.04.1942 – 3.03.1943
209,000	Initial number of forces sent out with the Second Army
 32,000	Replacements, October and December 1942
 30,000	Second Army losses, 24.04.1942 – 10.01.1943, (killed & wounded only)
211,000	Second Army strength on 11.01.1943
105,000	Second Army losses, January 1943
 20,000	Second Army losses, February 1943
 86,000	Number left on 3.03.1943 (including 15,000 wounded already sent home)
 40,000	Security Forces Strength in June 1942
 23,000	Reinforcements, June 1942 – January 1943
  4,000	Older soldiers sent home from the Security Forces
 22,000	Security Forces losses, June 1942 – February 1943
 37,000	Number left on 3.03.1943
154,000	Second Army losses, April 1942 – February 1943
 22,000	Security Forces losses, June 1942 – February 1943
176,971	Total number of Hungarian casualties, 24.04.1942 – 3.03.1943

Code: Select all

  
Second Army Casualties: 12.01.1943 – 26.02.1943
  8,718	Killed 
 16,497	Wounded 
 77,288	Missing 
  2,582	Prisoners 
105,085	Total 

Chart based on an official Hungarian calculation in 1943. However, “killed” must be taken to mean “know to have been killed”, and wounded (in most cases) “brought home wounded”. Clearly, large numbers of the “missing” must have died, and many more must have been wounded. The Soviets, in a communique issued relatively early in 1943, claimed only 28,000 prisoners, which could have included wounded.

[Csaba Becze]

Your sources and info again not the best. What kind of "official calculation" was the source?
The 2nd Army's losses were approx 30 000 (KIA, MIA, WIA) till the end of October, 1942 (mostly during the Operation Blau, and the bridgehead battles)
The losses in early 1943 were 96 000 (KIA, MIA, WIA)
I's enough huge loss, I don't know, why should exaggerate this(the old Communist sources especially exaggerate this numbers to make 'Horthy's guilt bigger').
BTW about the Soviets and their reports about the Hungarian POW's: they had evidently more POW's, but most of the POW's perished after several days/weeks in the Soviet captivity.

Do you read this topic?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... c&start=15

[4444]

Gents, being more than fascinated by your correspondence, I still wonder what the "Jewish batallions" few times referred to in this thread were. Would anyone of you bother to illuminate me?

[laszlo.nemedi]

Gents, being more than fascinated by your correspondence, I still wonder what the "Jewish batallions" few times referred to in this thread were. Would anyone of you bother to illuminate me?

Labor battalions were estabilished as working power for the Hungarian armies. Mostly they consisted of Hungarian Jewish. They were used for building forts, clearing minefields, etc (I did not hear their useage in the battlefield).
They were unarmed, but guarded by small gunned guards ("keretlegények"). They were treated like Jews elsewhere but
Nagybaczoni Nagy Vilmos ordered a fair treatment later (he was a defense minister for a short time in WWII) (source: Nagybaczoni Nagy Vilmos: Végzetes esztendök).

[Victor Nitu]

There were also many Romanian ethnics from NW Transylvania drafted into Hungarian work batalions.

[4444]

Labor battalions were...

Many thanks. This of course raises a lot of other questions, but I guess it is hard to answer them without a lecture on Hungarian policy towards the Jews. Will try to sort them out myself.

[Stephen]

Csaba,

During this thread, you mentioned that 145,000 casualties up to spring 1944 is your estimate. What then is your opinion of the German numbers until 11/44? I realize these German numbers are being looked at with skepticism, but they are starting to look like they are not that far off considering all the events that were happening during mid to late 1944.



Victor,

I was looking through Mark Axworthy’s book and noticed you were apparently using the same source as him on Rumanian loses. I could not find a note by Axworthy saying that out of the 309,533 missing troops that 130,000 came after the Rumanians surrender to the Soviets. Is this something that has just recently come to light or does your note come from a different source all together? If your note about the MIAs is correct, then the Germans would have only known of about 180,000 MIA until the end of August 1944. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Best wishes,
Steve

[sid guttridge]

Hi Guys,

I have here copies of four original German documents.

The first is a return submitted by German liaison staff with the Romanian 4th Army at the end of the Siege of Odessa in 1941. It states that 4th Army's losses alone (there was also a smaller 3rd Army) over the period 22 June to 16 October 1941 were:

Dead: 878 Officers, 284 Warrant Officers and 18,990 Other Ranks.

Wounded: 3,133 Officers, 1062 Warrant Officers and 72,403 Other Ranks.

Missing: 150 Officers, 65 Warrant Officers and 13,850 Other Ranks.

The important point to note here is that the Germans already knew in October 1941 that a single Romanian army had already suffered 20,152 dead.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The other three documents are the OKW returns for the cumulative totals of losses for all their allies on the Eastern Front for June, July and August 1944. As the August figure clearly cannot be accurate for Romania because the country had left the Axis before the end of the month, I will give the totals for the three main participants for July 1944 [Officer losses in brackets (-) are, I think, in addition to the unbracketed figure for Other Ranks]:

Italy: 6,721 (353) Dead, 36,426 (862) Wounded, 68,660 (57) Missing. TOTAL = 111,815 (1,272).

Hungary: 40,926 (344) Dead, 61,164 (1,089) Wounded, 29,050 (86) Missing. TOTAL = 131,140 (1,519).

Romania: 16,997 (553) Dead, 100,743 (2,528), 199,699 (2,988) Missing. TOTAL = 317,439 (6,069.

It is immediately apparent that the German figures for Romanian dead up to mid 1944 (16,997) are wildly inaccurate as they already knew in October 1941 that a single Romanian Army had suffered more fatalities than that (20,152). I would therefore suggest that German figures on Romanian casualties cannot be regarded as reliable.

According to "Third Axis, Fourth Ally", which is based on Romanian sources, Romanian losses against the USSR are variously given as:

72,291 Dead, 242,425 Wounded and 283,322 Missing. TOTAL: 598,038.

or

71,585 Dead, 243,622 Wounded and 309,533 Missing. TOTAL: 624,740.

(The discrepancy of about 26,000 in the missing might be explained by the fact that about that number of Romanians "volunteered" for two Soviet-raised rifle divisions, thereby reappearing in Romanian ranks after the country changed sides.)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For the Hungarians the Germans registerd the following losses inmid 1944:

June: 341 (9) Dead, 1,912 (61) Wounded and 130 (2) Missing. TOTAL: 2,383 (72).

July: 338 (18) Dead, 1,630 (30) Wounded and 118 (1) Missing. TOTAL: 2,086 (49).

August: 63 (9) Dead, 940 (17) Wounded, 284 (4) Missing. TOTAL: 1,287 (30).


Please double check figures. I have to leave this terminal before checking.


Cheers,

Sid.

[laszlo.nemedi]

There were also many Romanian ethnics from NW Transylvania drafted into Hungarian work batalions.

As I remember there was three type of engineering unit:
-work battalion (as I know mostly Jews)
-unarmed engineering units (specialized engineer, but not fighting units consisted people who were unreliable for the system, like communist or other non-Hungarians)
-and fighting engineer units, as I know in the first half of the war they usually were not in the first line, only in special cases, later they changed like the German style engineering unit...


So they can be Rumanian Jews who lived in NW Transylvania, or they can be in the specialised engineerig units.
(if you know their name, there is a cost-free information for them, if they are interested...)

[Victor Nitu]

Stephen,
The issue of those captured taken (mostly abusively) by the Red Army after 23 August 1944 is not settled yet.
A confidential note of the Romanian Commission for the Enforcing of the Armistice stated that before 23 August 1944, the number of MIAs in the operations of the Eastern Front was 163,015 (3,468 officers, 3,241 NCOs and 156,306 soldiers). After 24 August the Red Army had taken 97,732 Romanian troops (1,263 officers, 1,688 NCOs and 91,181 soldiers). Other data from the same Commission stated the number of the second category at about 160,000. The Romanian delegation at the Peace Conference in Paris stated that there 130,000 men in this situation. So I decided to go with the 130,000 figure.

Laszlo,
I have found a mention in the book Armata Romana 1941-45 by Scafes, Serbanescu & others, More or less the Romanian version of Third Axis, Fourth Ally, that roughly 70,000 Romanian ethnics from NW Transylvania were drafted in the Hungarian Army. They served in work companies (it does not specify what type) and in the 9th Corps (25th, 26th and 27th Divisions) and in the 2nd Army.

I found a mention in another book that after the war 13,120 Romanians, who had served in the Hungarian army, were returned from Soviet captivity.

[Csaba Becze]

The Rumanian ethnic soldiers, who were sent to the front with the 2nd Army were generally not in labour battailons: they were used in the second line service in combatant units.