KstN for SS Panzer Abteilung 1942?
KstN for SS Panzer Abteilung 1942?
Does anyone know have access to the KstN (TO&E) for the three SS Panzer Abteilungen (Wiking, Das Reich and Totenkopf) that were formed in 1942? I know that they were authorized 2 companies of Pz.III and 1 company of Pz.IV, each with 17 tanks, but I need more of the in-the-weeds details, such as how many Pz.II in the recon platoon, how many trucks, personnel etc. etc. Would greatly appreciate it!
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John Nelson
- Member
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- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Hello,
Here's some of what I have, I hope it useful.
Jan 28 '42 - orders cut for the formation of a Pz. Abt for the LSSAH and another SS-Div (not specified). LSSAH was authorized 3 mittlere Kpn under K.St.N. 1175 v Nov.1.41 but due to the shortage of Pz.II only 3 Pz.II, and 10.Pz.IV were sent to each Kp. The Pz.Abt.Stab, u. Stab.Kp. were issued 1 Pz.Bef.Wg, 2 Pz.III, and 3 Pz.II.
Standard K.St.N 1175 v.1.Nov.41 =
Kp.Truppe = 2 Pz.IV
le.Zug = 5 Pz.II
1.-3.Zugen = 4 Pz.IV.
(don't have 'soft' vehicle count.)
Standard K.St.N. 1171 v.1.Nov.41
Kp.Truppe= 2 Pz.III
le.Zug = 5 Pz.II
1.-3.Zug =5 Pz.III.
SS-Pz.Abt.2 - was authorized 2 le.Pz.Kpn (K.St.N.1171 v.1Nov.41) w/ 17 Pz.III, and no Pz.II and 1.mittlere Pz.Kp under K.St.N.1175 v.1Nov41, and was modified identical to Pz.Abt.LSSAH, Stab, and Stab,Kp. were modified the same as LSSAH.
The offical date of formation for the Pz.Abt.LSSAH was Feb.1.42, while the SS-Pz.Abt.2 was 15.Feb.42. On 18.Apr.42, the SS-Pz.Abt.2 was given to Wiking, and renamed SS-Pz.Abt.5. On Apr.20.42 a new SS-Pz.Abt.2 w/ 2 le.Pz.Kpn, and 1 m.Pz.Kp. On 1.Jun.42, SS-Pz.Abt.3 was formed w/ 2 le.Pz.Kpn, and 1 m.Pz.Kp.
I hope it helps,
John Nelson
Here's some of what I have, I hope it useful.
Jan 28 '42 - orders cut for the formation of a Pz. Abt for the LSSAH and another SS-Div (not specified). LSSAH was authorized 3 mittlere Kpn under K.St.N. 1175 v Nov.1.41 but due to the shortage of Pz.II only 3 Pz.II, and 10.Pz.IV were sent to each Kp. The Pz.Abt.Stab, u. Stab.Kp. were issued 1 Pz.Bef.Wg, 2 Pz.III, and 3 Pz.II.
Standard K.St.N 1175 v.1.Nov.41 =
Kp.Truppe = 2 Pz.IV
le.Zug = 5 Pz.II
1.-3.Zugen = 4 Pz.IV.
(don't have 'soft' vehicle count.)
Standard K.St.N. 1171 v.1.Nov.41
Kp.Truppe= 2 Pz.III
le.Zug = 5 Pz.II
1.-3.Zug =5 Pz.III.
SS-Pz.Abt.2 - was authorized 2 le.Pz.Kpn (K.St.N.1171 v.1Nov.41) w/ 17 Pz.III, and no Pz.II and 1.mittlere Pz.Kp under K.St.N.1175 v.1Nov41, and was modified identical to Pz.Abt.LSSAH, Stab, and Stab,Kp. were modified the same as LSSAH.
The offical date of formation for the Pz.Abt.LSSAH was Feb.1.42, while the SS-Pz.Abt.2 was 15.Feb.42. On 18.Apr.42, the SS-Pz.Abt.2 was given to Wiking, and renamed SS-Pz.Abt.5. On Apr.20.42 a new SS-Pz.Abt.2 w/ 2 le.Pz.Kpn, and 1 m.Pz.Kp. On 1.Jun.42, SS-Pz.Abt.3 was formed w/ 2 le.Pz.Kpn, and 1 m.Pz.Kp.
I hope it helps,
John Nelson
Great - what does it show for organization of Bn. HQ?
John,
Great stuff. So what does the KstN show for organization of the Bn HQ?
Also, while the Pz.Abt. for the LSSAH was ordered for 1 Feb 42, when did it actually begin forming? The Wiking's Pz.Abt. 5 veterans claim that theirs was the first to actually begin organizing - that may be correct since the LSSAH was scheduled to be shipped back to France to be rebuilt while Wiking was staying in the East and would need the Pz.Abt. sooner than the LSSAH (and Das Reich) would.
The records indicate that the 3.Kp. of SS Pz.Abt. 5 was the one organized with Pz.IV -- the first two platoons recived Pz.IV F1s, while the 3rd Platoon recieved Pz.IVF2s with the long 75mm gun.
Last question - what is the source? I'm putting together a book on Pz.Rgt. 5 Wiking and would like to reference it.
Thanks much --
Great stuff. So what does the KstN show for organization of the Bn HQ?
Also, while the Pz.Abt. for the LSSAH was ordered for 1 Feb 42, when did it actually begin forming? The Wiking's Pz.Abt. 5 veterans claim that theirs was the first to actually begin organizing - that may be correct since the LSSAH was scheduled to be shipped back to France to be rebuilt while Wiking was staying in the East and would need the Pz.Abt. sooner than the LSSAH (and Das Reich) would.
The records indicate that the 3.Kp. of SS Pz.Abt. 5 was the one organized with Pz.IV -- the first two platoons recived Pz.IV F1s, while the 3rd Platoon recieved Pz.IVF2s with the long 75mm gun.
Last question - what is the source? I'm putting together a book on Pz.Rgt. 5 Wiking and would like to reference it.
Thanks much --
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Roger Griffiths
- Associate
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- Location: UK
Which KsTN? Don't know....
I don't know which one was the relevant one - but would assume that it was the one whose date coincided with the 3 "line" Kompanien, which were all promulgated on 1 Nov 41 -- But would it be possible to get the structure of each of the ones you mention? Also, does the KstN list how many personnel in each of the Kompanien? That is, the Abt. Stab, Stabs Kompanie, 1. - 2. Kompanie, and the 3. Kompanie? Would greatly appreciate the help in nailing this down - I'll credit you and John as sources for the book as a way of saying thanks for your assistance.
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John Nelson
- Member
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- Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2002 8:26 pm
Hey Doug,
Contact me offline, and I can get you a much more detailed answer to your questions. I have a number of doc from the BA, and NA.
John Nelson
[email protected]
Contact me offline, and I can get you a much more detailed answer to your questions. I have a number of doc from the BA, and NA.
John Nelson
[email protected]
John Nelson already answered this question pretty good in one of the posts above. Here is part of a post of mine from another thread on another forum:
From page 215 of Panzertruppen Volume One by Jentz:
"The three Mittlere Panzer Kompanie in SS PzAbt 1 for LSSAH were organized in accordance with KStN 1175 dated 1 Nov41."
-This KStN has 3 Zug each with 4 Panzer IV.
From page 47 and page 64 of Panzertruppen Volume Two by Jentz we see that it shows that the SS Pz Rgts created on 14 October of 1942 used these KStN:
-1103 1Nov41 Stab PzRgt
-SS 13Oct42 Pz Pionier Kompanie
-1107 1Nov41 Stab PzAbt
-1150 1Nov41 Stab-Kompanie PzAbt
-1171 1Nov41 Leichte Pz Kompanie
-1175 1Nov41 Mittlere Pz Kompanie
-1187 1Jun42 Panzer Werkstatt Kompanie
-1176d 15Aug42 Schwere Pz Kompanie d
*The only difference between an Heer and a Waffen SS Panzer Regiment is that the Waffen SS one had a Panzer Pioniere Kompanie and of course, the Schwere Panzer Kompanie. Also, LSSAH had 3 Mittlere Kompanie instead of 1 Mittlere and 2 Leichte but so did the Grossdeutschland Panzer Regiment. GD Panzer Regiment had two PzAbt each with 3 Mittlere plus the extra Schwere Pz Kompanie, basically the same as LSSAH.
*So, I do not see any evidence that the Waffen SS and Heer Panzerzug organization was any different from each other. The Mittlere Kompanie Panzerzug had 4 Panzer and the Leichte Kompanie Panzerzug had 5 Panzer. Then, later in 1943-1944 the new Mittlere Kompanie Panzerzug had 5 Panzer. This is for both Heer and Waffen SS.
SS PzAbt 5 was the first SS PzAbt to go into action, not really the first one formed. And like John has pointed out, this was actually the SS PzAbt 2 which was renamed SS PzAbt 5 and assigned to Wiking.
All of this info comes from the two Panzertruppen Volumes.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
From page 215 of Panzertruppen Volume One by Jentz:
"The three Mittlere Panzer Kompanie in SS PzAbt 1 for LSSAH were organized in accordance with KStN 1175 dated 1 Nov41."
-This KStN has 3 Zug each with 4 Panzer IV.
From page 47 and page 64 of Panzertruppen Volume Two by Jentz we see that it shows that the SS Pz Rgts created on 14 October of 1942 used these KStN:
-1103 1Nov41 Stab PzRgt
-SS 13Oct42 Pz Pionier Kompanie
-1107 1Nov41 Stab PzAbt
-1150 1Nov41 Stab-Kompanie PzAbt
-1171 1Nov41 Leichte Pz Kompanie
-1175 1Nov41 Mittlere Pz Kompanie
-1187 1Jun42 Panzer Werkstatt Kompanie
-1176d 15Aug42 Schwere Pz Kompanie d
*The only difference between an Heer and a Waffen SS Panzer Regiment is that the Waffen SS one had a Panzer Pioniere Kompanie and of course, the Schwere Panzer Kompanie. Also, LSSAH had 3 Mittlere Kompanie instead of 1 Mittlere and 2 Leichte but so did the Grossdeutschland Panzer Regiment. GD Panzer Regiment had two PzAbt each with 3 Mittlere plus the extra Schwere Pz Kompanie, basically the same as LSSAH.
*So, I do not see any evidence that the Waffen SS and Heer Panzerzug organization was any different from each other. The Mittlere Kompanie Panzerzug had 4 Panzer and the Leichte Kompanie Panzerzug had 5 Panzer. Then, later in 1943-1944 the new Mittlere Kompanie Panzerzug had 5 Panzer. This is for both Heer and Waffen SS.
SS PzAbt 5 was the first SS PzAbt to go into action, not really the first one formed. And like John has pointed out, this was actually the SS PzAbt 2 which was renamed SS PzAbt 5 and assigned to Wiking.
All of this info comes from the two Panzertruppen Volumes.
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!