Kst.N 1162...

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 3:31 am

What was Kst.N 1162? Something with Schwimmwagen? And what's the difference between 1162 and 1162c.?

Thanks in advance,
Timo

Christoph Awender · Post by **Christoph Awender** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:21 am

Hello Timo!

1162 is a Panzerspähkompanie. I ill have a look what the difference to c is.
http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/kstn/kstn11621okt38.htm

\Christoph

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 6:35 am

Hmmm, strange. I've got a BA-MA file that gives the Gliederung of Aufklärungsabteilung LAH on 30.06.1943 as:

Stab - Kst.N 1109 (gp.)
1.Kompanie - Kst.N 1162
2.Kompanie - Kst.N 1162c.
3.Kompanie - Kst.N 1113 (gp.)
4.Kompanie - Kst.N 1113 (gp.)
5.Kompanie:
- Stab - Kst.N 1121a (gp.)
- Pionierzug - Kst.N 1124a (gp.)
- Geschützzug - Kst.N 1123a (gp.)
- Schw. Kanonenzug - Kst.N 1125a (gp.)
- Panzerjägerzug - Kst.N 1145a (gp.)
le. Kolonne - Kst.N 1181

The above Gliederung looks like a standard 1943 Gliederung for an Aufkl.Abt. But all other info I found indicates that at this time the AA LAH still had its initial Gliederung with Stab, 1. and 2.Kompanie (VW), 3.Kompanie (le.SPW), 4.Kompanie (Pz.Späh), 5.Kompanie (schw.) and a le. Kolonne

For example, were did the Schwimmers of 1. and 2.Kompanie go? Earlier and later Gliederungen do show them.

The June 1943 Gliederung also shows the mysterious second le.SPW Kompanie mentioned by dr. Chuang in an earlier thread, that does not appear in any other Gliederung or other source.

I don't get it

Piet Duits · Post by **Piet Duits** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:00 am

KStN 1162: 3x SdKfz 231, 3x SdKfz 232, 12x SdKfz 222, 6x SdKfz 223.
KStN 1162a: 25x SdKfz 234/2
KStN 1162b: 25x SdKfz 123 or SdKfz 140/1
KStN 1162c: 9 SdKfz 250/5, 16x SdKfz 250/9
KStN 1162d: 19x SdKfz 234/1, 6x SdKfz 234/3
KStN 1162e: 5x Sdkfz 250/1, 5x SdKfz 250/3, 1x SdKfz 251/3, 5x SdKfz 251/21 *)
KStN 1162f: 3x SdKfz 251/3, 3x SdKfz 251/21, 3x SdKfz 251/22, 8x SdKfz 234/1, 7x SdKfz 234/4

*) as of 1.2.45, intended for the Panzerjagdabteilungen (2x Jagdpanzerkompanien (Hetzer), 1x Panz.Aufkl. Abt.)

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:09 am

Hallo Piet,

I allready figured that the c version of 1162 had to be the 250/9 version when I learned from Christoph that this was a Pz.Späh Kompanie. But SdKfz 250/9 with LAH in 1943? There's something very odd about that 30.06.1943 Gliederung

To me it seems like KStN 1162 is correct for AA LAH, but for it's 4.Kompanie, not for the 1.Kompanie.

Regards,
Timo

Piet Duits · Post by **Piet Duits** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 7:59 am

Hi,

I am under the impression that the beforementioned Gliederung is a standard Soll-Gliederung, still named though- of a Division.
What about the other elements of the division: also of the same standard? (high amount of weapons etc.)

Piet

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 9:20 am

I've send you a scan of the Gliederung in question. I can't judge the other divisional units because I don't know much about their supposed strength.

Piet Duits · Post by **Piet Duits** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:22 am

Soll Gliederung.

No mistake! I think the Leibstandarte wished they had all the weapons and equipment as shown on this chart.

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 11:27 am

Great! Thanks Piet

Seems I don't have to worry about their beloved Schwimmers

Paul Hanson · Post by **Paul Hanson** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:29 pm

Timo;

When I read this at lunch I definitely remembered something from my AFV-G2 collection.

KStn 1162 1.11.43 SdKfz 232 1st (Schw)Zug and SdKfz 222 Zug 2 thru 4

KStn 1162 B SdKfz 240/1 Kompanie

KStn 1162 C (f.G.) SdKfz 234/2 Kompanie

KStn 1162 D SdKfz 243/1 (1, 2 and 3 Zug) SdKfz 234/3 4th Schwere Zug

Granted these are from the 70's but I offer the information for what it's worth.

Paul

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:33 pm

Paul Hanson wrote: KStn 1162 1.11.43 SdKfz 232 1st (Schw)Zug and SdKfz 222 Zug 2 thru 4

KStn 1162 B SdKfz 240/1 Kompanie

KStn 1162 C (f.G.) SdKfz 234/2 Kompanie

KStn 1162 D SdKfz 243/1 (1, 2 and 3 Zug) SdKfz 234/3 4th Schwere Zug

Thanks Paul, but they differ from the official Kst.N data provided by Piet

Piet Duits wrote: KStN 1162: 3x SdKfz 231, 3x SdKfz 232, 12x SdKfz 222, 6x SdKfz 223.
KStN 1162a: 25x SdKfz 234/2
KStN 1162b: 25x SdKfz 123 or SdKfz 140/1
KStN 1162c: 9 SdKfz 250/5, 16x SdKfz 250/9
KStN 1162d: 19x SdKfz 234/1, 6x SdKfz 234/3
KStN 1162e: 5x Sdkfz 250/1, 5x SdKfz 250/3, 1x SdKfz 251/3, 5x SdKfz 251/21 *)
KStN 1162f: 3x SdKfz 251/3, 3x SdKfz 251/21, 3x SdKfz 251/22, 8x SdKfz 234/1, 7x SdKfz 234/4

*) as of 1.2.45, intended for the Panzerjagdabteilungen (2x Jagdpanzerkompanien (Hetzer), 1x Panz.Aufkl. Abt.)

Hans Weber · Post by **Hans Weber** » Fri Apr 25, 2003 1:54 am

Hello Timo

Piet is on the right trail. You will find several Gliederungen from LAH from the same date, reflecting Soll and Ist. So you have first to find out which one to use for which purpose. The June 43 list refers to the Soll. It is far away from the Ist. In other documents you will find orders for refitting, they just name Kompanie Nr and official KStN/KAN. In reality things looked different.

A question: HJ and LAH had a Soll of 22 PSW (in case of LAH:
16 Pumas, 2 232 and 4 222) in June 44 and later months. This does not to reflect an official KStN. Other SS units in the same time have other PSW totals (you will find this in the list Fahrzeugausstattung which figures on a normal Gliederung. Has anybody more info on this topic. I suspect it could be the result of an Org. Abt. order or similar for I. SS Pz Korps which eludes me.

Cheers
Hans

Piet Duits · Post by **Piet Duits** » Fri Apr 25, 2003 1:59 am

Hans,

Interesting. It seems to me they (Org.Abt.?) tried to put together enough Spähtrupps: 16 Puma's = 8 Spähtrupps. 2 SdKfz 232 (Fu) + 4 SdKfz 222's = 2 Spähtrupps.
So all together these divisions still had 10 Panzerspähtrupps.

Piet

Hans Weber · Post by **Hans Weber** » Fri Apr 25, 2003 5:18 am

Hello Piet,

This could indeed be the reason behind. I just looked up the Soll Gliederung for a type 44 Waffen SS Division (a copy of which can be found in Wood/Dugdaleßs book on Waffen SS units in Normandy). Again 18 sPSW and 4 le PSW, so after all it would seem that I. SS Pz Korps just followed the official line. Funny enough, in this chart we have the same Stabskompanie (with 13 x 2cm KwK and 3 x 7,5 KwK among others) as in a standard Heer unit, which puzzles me. The depiction in general is on the same line as an ordinary Soll Gliederung for a Waffen SS unit like LAH used for its monthly reports. Maybe we have to look for a lost footnote for what seems to be a discrepancy between the graphic part and the lists on the same document?

Cheers
Hans

Roger Griffiths · Post by **Roger Griffiths** » Fri Apr 25, 2003 9:28 am

At the top of the Sollgliederung you are talking of it does say "Vorlaufige" ie provisional. The graphics are a great help because the weapon totals point towards the relevant KStN's. Also 1SS PD shows the unit personnel totals, so another check for correct KStN's. Note 3/SS PzAA 1 and armd panz. gren. coys. are different to that incuded in Pz.Div. 44. 6 SPW 251/17's against 7 in PD44.

It's good to have the individual PD Sollgliederungs before PD43 and PD44 and indeed thereafter, but they are only of academic interest. All that matters is the actuals (Istgliederung).

Regards,

Roger

Feldgrau.net

Kst.N 1162...

Kst.N 1162...

KStn

KStN 1162 vs 1162c

Re: KStN 1162 vs 1162c

Án answer and a question