What I am trying to do is to figure out exactly when any LSSAH units first made it to Normandy, especially the Panther units. As you can see by two of my posts on this thread (now y'all know who Wolfkin is ), I believe that there can not be any LSSAH Panthers around on June 15:
This is not a competition in any way and I am not trying to say I am right. I only wish to help solve a mystery. Barry Crook and the others all do very good research and contribute many informative posts (and excellent pictures!), it is just that the Leibstandarte interests me a great deal and I would like to know as much information as I can.
I believe that perhaps the date of June 15 is incorrect. Maybe some parts of LSSAH were there but surely not any Panthers.
As you can see, we all seem to be stumped as to what the truth is. So, if anyone has any info that they can provide please do!
Thank you in advance!
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
15 June is probabely correct, but Panther was HJ. Venohr mentions the fact that Meyer took over the HJ one day earlier and Witt was indeed killed on the morning of 14 June 1944, while stationed at his headquarters in Venoix. Witt was killed from a shrapnel wound to the face, the direct result of a Allied naval bombardment. He was 36 years old and is buried in Champigny - St. Andre De L'Eure (France)
The problems I have while reading Venhor are the following: It looks like right away a Vorausabteilung was created that had to join the Invasionsfront at once. Like that it was clear that LAH would fight alongside HJ from the start, possibly in the Caen region. This is far away from the truth. There was a big incertainity where to engage the unit. The German High Command believed for some days that the Invasion was just a side show at the big thing would come near Calais. Everyone with access to Zetterlings "Normandy 1944" will find that on 8th June it was ordered to Normandy, BUT the next day this order was rescinded. The reason for this was that the main effort was suposed to happen on 10th June in Western Belgium due to a (false) message intercepted that was issued to the Belgium resistance mouvement. There exists an order dated 9.6.44 issued by Pz Gren Rgt 2 called "Verlegung in den Raum von Brügge" which was issued to counter this thread (the divisional order for this one I could not find, but it is clear that the whole division was to move). Further information on this can be found in Lehmann vol IV/1. Only on 17th June 44 the division was set in march to Normandy for good. Lehmann says that before this date, the Führer wanted LAH to join HJ asap at the Lagebesprechung on 12th June, but further delay seems to have taken place. Next there is a divisional order dated 19.06.1944 called"Befehl für die Ausladung und Versammlung der Division" - order for detraining and reassembling the division. It lists all the areas attributed to the various units. It orders Vorausdetachements to reconnoiter the areas, which was obviously SOP, but we are nowhere near Caen, but further to the south east near Dreux-Evreux-L'Aigle. Only in the first week of July the division moved up to Caen. So in a nutshell, what the heck was this Vorausabteilung doing at Verson (Div CP of HJ since 15.06.44) when it seems that only at this exact time the decision was finally made to engage the unit in Normandy alongside HJ by High Command? Was Böttcher a fortuneteller? Or was the mission of these men just to visit HJ, say hello and talk about the war in general and about fighting in Normandy in particular? To give Venhor credit, it could be that his mission originated in the order dated 8th June, which was cancelled the next day. But why not call him back? As for the unit these guys could have met at Paris if they indeed were there just before 15.06.44, I could think of 2nd Panzer but it must be a very early tank, as the tracked vhc of this units generally incurred a huge delay due to the terrible railway situation. Or a Panther from I./Pz Rgt 6 recalled to Panzer Lehr right away from their trains to Germany.
Thank you very much for your answers Timo and Hans!
This is very interesting! So, it looks like Venohr and his unit were indeed there on that date but the possibility of a LSSAH Panther being there is very slim.
Now, the mystery of identifying the unit...I/PzRgt 3 or I/PzRegt 6...hmmm... which unit could been moving through Paris on that day...this is fun, eh?
Cheers guys!!!
Wolfkin
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
I have SitRep maps for 7th Army for 19th and 29th June. They are very detailed but only show 1SS PD in line 29th, without Div HQ location. That sounds like Division still arriving. No mention of Vorausabteilung on 19th June. Then, SS 101 (Tiger) does not appear on any of the 7A maps I have!!!
I believe that the Advance Guard was there on June 15 but for sure no Panthers of the LSSAH. I just wonder what unit this Panther could have been from.
Just a question, I know Tigers were represented with an "E", Panthers with a "D" and Panzer IV with a "C2", but I thought StuG were represented with a "G1". Did some documents use different codes?
Cheers,
Wolfkin
Amateurs limit their study to either Tactics, Strategy or Logistics. Professionals study ALL THREE of these!!!
), I believe that there can not be any LSSAH Panthers around on June 15: