WWII Awards Comparison

[PFCWintergreen]

Hello,

As this is my first post, my apologies if I haven't put this topic in the correct category as I am still getting to know my way around this excellent forum.

My enquiry is this:-

During WWII the total number of Ritterkreuzs awarded was 7313 (excluding the higher versions) for the Germans, the total number of Congressional Medal of Honors awarded was 464 and for the British, the Victoria Cross was awarded only 181 times. Given that these awards were only handed out for the most outstanding acts of heroism, bravery and valour, does that mean that, even though it is somewhat a simplistic argument, the Germans were braver than their allied counterparts?

Although some of the criteria for recieving this type of award differed from country to country, especially in the case of the Ritterkreuz, which was also awarded for acts of outstanding leadership, the basic criteria were essentially the same. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?

[phylo_roadking]

Different conditions, AND a different ethos behind them, ill try to explain....
Dunno about the Medal of Honour, but the VC is awarded for bavery beyond the call of duty with the unwritten proviso that the winner did something that he would die from normally, or be awarded posthumously The Knight's Cross is at the top of the German honours ladder, but its was more of a progressive thing, that there were bands and progressions up the tree; yes there were TONS of exceptions were a first class Iron Cross etc would be awarded straight in, but the Knights was the top award. This WASNT the case of the VC - it was above, beyond and sort of OUTSIDE anything else. Also, you have to remember the propaganda element; Im not denegrating the bravery of winners, but you know that a LOT of Axis medals were awarded for the benefit of the cameras of the propaganda machine. Dunno if that came out right, its way late here LOL

[krichter33]

The KC was awarded for valor like the MH and the VC. But unlike the MH and the VC it was also awarded for leadership and distinguished service. The Americans and the British had other awards for this, such as the Distinguished Service Order, or Cross, or Medal, ect. This should by no means denigrate the Knight's Cross. For example a soldier might take part in an action above and beyond the call of duty and win a Knight's Cross (if he already has the Iron Cross 1 and 2), and any allied individual who performed a similar act would have probably recieved a MH or VC. Then of course you got the fighter pilot who reaches a certain amount of kills and is awarded the Knight's Cross, whereas his allied counterpart might get a DSO, or Medal. And finally, a German general might successfuly conduct a large scale operation and is awarded the KC, whereas his allied counterpart might recieve some other type of commendation. That, I believe, is the basic difference. It wasn't that the Germans were "braver" it was simply because of the fact that the Knight's Cross was awarded not only for bravery in combat, but also for distinguished service, and leadership. Sorry for the long post.

[Doktor Krollspell]

Hello Gentlemen!

An interesting question/discussion, when it comes to compare the "status" of different awards between countries. I'm a bit lazy (before breakfast ) so I'll qoute myself from an earlier thread...

http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... t=victoria


First of all, there where 182 awards of the Victoria Cross and just one first Bar during WWII. Having said this, to answer your main question about the VC's german equivalent is not that easy.

The obvious choice would naturally be the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. This was awarded over 7.300 times during the war. Later add-ons where the Oakleaves (ca. 880 awards), the Swords (160 awards) and the Diamonds (27 awards). Then there is the Golden Oakleaves which were awarded once to Oberst Rudel. Not to forget the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross that also just where awarded once, this to Reichsmarschall Göring.
Then of course, you have about 30.000 bestowed awards of the German Cross in Gold, a decoration which ranked above the Iron Cross First Class...

How to compare the VC to the KC? One problem is/was that the VC is/was an award "For Valour" on the battlefield under enemy fire while the KC could be bestowed for several different reasons. It was also mainly for valour in the field/skies/seas but also for leadership of units, crucial staff work, transport pilots etc. This doesn't automatically makes the VC a "higher" award (at least not in my eyes). The main reason that so few VC's where bestowed on english/allied military personel during the war was that Great Britain had a bunch of other prestigeous awards to bestow:

The Distinguished Service Order - This award ranks just below the VC and during WWII, 4.880 DSO's where awarded, 497 First Bars and 8 Third Bars. The DSO was valid for all branches of service.

The Distinguished Service Cross - This award was for members of the Royal navy that had distinguished thenmselves. During WWII, 7132 DSC's, 153 First Bars, 4 Second Bars and 1 Third Bar was awarded.

Military Cross - Army award for Officers that had demonstrated bravery in combat, later in the war also eligible for Officers in the RAF and the Royal Navy that had done the same during ground combat. During WWII 10.386 MC's, 482 First Bars and 24 Second Bars where awarded.

The Distinguished Flying Cross - Was awarded to flying personel, mainly in the RAF for courage and/or devotion during operational flights towards the enemy. During WWII 20.354 DFC's, 1550 First Bars and 42 Second Bars where awarded.

+++

There was of course more british decorations during WWII but the above mentioned where the most prestigeous awards under the Victoria Cross. Now then, how to compare awards, their status as "more prestigeous" and so on... It's very difficult just to compare numbers. Is the VC equivalent of the KC or not? Maybe with the Swords bearers (similar numbers)? How many KC's where awarded for pure bravery on the battlefield under enemy fire? (There's a task to research!)

Anyhow, the main source for the facts/numbers of the british decorations has been "Allied combat medals of World War 2 - Volume 1: Britain the Commonwealth and Western European nations" by Christopher Ailsby (1989). I'm really looking forward to some intelligent input/contribution in this question...


Regards,

Krollspell

[Troy Tempest]

Wow, the guy who started this thread was apologising for possibly putting it, his first question, in the wrong place, as he was "still getting to know his way around this wonderful forum". He must be a really thorough guy, as it's four years later and he still hasn't posted his second question!