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thanks,
Mad Dog
AFV deliveries to 176th division
Moderator: Tom Houlihan
AFV deliveries to 176th division
T78 R621, H16/246, frame 773 contains an entry for deliveries of JgPz 38 to the 176th infantry division in February 1945. However, my copy is very hard to read.
I make this out as a delivery of "1" JgPz 38 to Pz.Jg. Kp 1176. Does anyone have a clearer copy, and can anyone determine what the text is above the 3 entries ?
thanks,
Mad Dog
I make this out as a delivery of "1" JgPz 38 to Pz.Jg. Kp 1176. Does anyone have a clearer copy, and can anyone determine what the text is above the 3 entries ?
thanks,
Mad Dog
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Panzeralex
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Re: AFV deliveries to 176th division
Hi Mad Dog
I have a clearer copy.
Pz.Jg.Kp. 1357 = 11
Pz.Jg.Kp. 1222 = 8
Pz.Jg.Kp. 1176 = 1
Best regards
Panzeralex
I have a clearer copy.
Pz.Jg.Kp. 1357 = 11
Pz.Jg.Kp. 1222 = 8
Pz.Jg.Kp. 1176 = 1
Best regards
Panzeralex
Re: AFV deliveries to 176th division
Thanks Alex. I dont suppose you can make out the text above the 3 entries ? "X-something...." ?
thanks,
Mad Dog
thanks,
Mad Dog
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Jan-Hendrik
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Re: AFV deliveries to 176th division
Thanks Jan-Hendrik.
Mad Dog
Mad Dog
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John Nelson
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Corrections to AFV deliveries
Hey Guys,
I don't mean to be a 'nit-picker' but I have to correct the AFV deliveries for the Jagdpanzer 38 to the ''176.Inf.Div.'' Actually the 'Verteilung' was for the 76.Inf.Div.
The Kp. was 1176 and it was bouncing around between Heeresgruppe Sued and Mitte. Some background: On Aug.22.'44, the Pz.Jg.Kp.1176 equipped with 13 Jagdpz.38, (The Kp. did received it's authorized 14 Hetzer, but 1 was left at Tr.Ub.Pl.Mielau because of engine trouble, and did not ship out with the rest of the Kp.), left Mielau to join is parent unit on the E.Front. After delays, mainly with the collapse of H.Gr.Sued-Ukraine in Romania, the Kp. wasn't ordered back to its parent Division until Sept.14, this order was repeated again on 25.Sep.'44, but an emergency on Oct.6.'44 pulled the Kp.1176 away from the 76.Inf.Div., and along with the Kp.1179, and 1257, they were rushed to Armee Gruppe Fretter-Pico, where they were heavily engaged on the Hungarian Plains during the month. By the beginning of Dec.'44, the Kp.1176 had a handful of Jagdpz.38 left, and H.Gr.Sued received a resupply of 34 Jagdpz.38 that left the Reich on Dec.8./9. '44. The Kp.1176 was to receive a complete allotment of 14 Jagdpz.38. The Jagdpz.38 weren't shipped to the unit directly, and on 25.Dec.'44 the Kp.1176 was ordered to "Panzer Stutzpunkt" Galanta to pick up it's Hetzer, and afterwards it was to be shipped by rail to AOK 8. As late as 30.Dec.'44, the Kp.1176 had 3 Jagdpz.38 on-hand with its replacements reported still in route. On 1.Feb.'45, the Kp.1176 reported 8 combat ready Hetzer, and on 15.Feb.'45 it reported 9 combat ready Hetzer. As late as 15.Apr.'45, the Kp.1176 with the Pz.AOK 1, it reported 11 Jagdpanzer 38, of which 10 were combat ready.
Panzerjaeger Horridoh!
John Nelson
I don't mean to be a 'nit-picker' but I have to correct the AFV deliveries for the Jagdpanzer 38 to the ''176.Inf.Div.'' Actually the 'Verteilung' was for the 76.Inf.Div.
The Kp. was 1176 and it was bouncing around between Heeresgruppe Sued and Mitte. Some background: On Aug.22.'44, the Pz.Jg.Kp.1176 equipped with 13 Jagdpz.38, (The Kp. did received it's authorized 14 Hetzer, but 1 was left at Tr.Ub.Pl.Mielau because of engine trouble, and did not ship out with the rest of the Kp.), left Mielau to join is parent unit on the E.Front. After delays, mainly with the collapse of H.Gr.Sued-Ukraine in Romania, the Kp. wasn't ordered back to its parent Division until Sept.14, this order was repeated again on 25.Sep.'44, but an emergency on Oct.6.'44 pulled the Kp.1176 away from the 76.Inf.Div., and along with the Kp.1179, and 1257, they were rushed to Armee Gruppe Fretter-Pico, where they were heavily engaged on the Hungarian Plains during the month. By the beginning of Dec.'44, the Kp.1176 had a handful of Jagdpz.38 left, and H.Gr.Sued received a resupply of 34 Jagdpz.38 that left the Reich on Dec.8./9. '44. The Kp.1176 was to receive a complete allotment of 14 Jagdpz.38. The Jagdpz.38 weren't shipped to the unit directly, and on 25.Dec.'44 the Kp.1176 was ordered to "Panzer Stutzpunkt" Galanta to pick up it's Hetzer, and afterwards it was to be shipped by rail to AOK 8. As late as 30.Dec.'44, the Kp.1176 had 3 Jagdpz.38 on-hand with its replacements reported still in route. On 1.Feb.'45, the Kp.1176 reported 8 combat ready Hetzer, and on 15.Feb.'45 it reported 9 combat ready Hetzer. As late as 15.Apr.'45, the Kp.1176 with the Pz.AOK 1, it reported 11 Jagdpanzer 38, of which 10 were combat ready.
Panzerjaeger Horridoh!
John Nelson
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Martin Block
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Re: AFV deliveries to 176th division
Nice work John!
And to answer the probable follow-up question: The a/t unit of the 176. Inf.Div. was the Pz.Jg.Abt. 1176 which was formed using Stab, Stabskp., Pz.Jg.Kp, 1243 (StuG III) and 3./Pz.Jg.Abt. 243 of the 243. Inf.Div. which had been destroyed in Normandy and adding a new 1. Kp. [the original 1. Kp. became the Pz.Jg.Kp. 1363b for the 363. V.G.D.]. Since a Pz.Jg.Kp. 1176 already existed the Pz.Jg.Kp. 1243 apparently kept its old designation for months to come which explains the later StuG III deliveries to a no longer existing 243. Div.
Finally, on 13.3.1945 Pz.Jg.Abt. 1176 (176. I.D.) was renumbered to Pz.Jg.Abt. 176 while at the same time Pz.Jg.Abt. 176 of the 76. Inf.Div. was renamed to Pz.Jg.Abt. 76. This should have resulted in a renumbering of the Pz.Jg.Kpn. to 1243 (176. I.D.) => 1176 and 1176 (76. ID.) => 1076. It may have taken some time until this order made its way down the chain of command and reached the units.
Martin Block
P.S.: BTW, the complete allocation list for Jagdpz. 38 as well as many other AFV types can be found here http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=8113 Work on more is in progress.
And to answer the probable follow-up question: The a/t unit of the 176. Inf.Div. was the Pz.Jg.Abt. 1176 which was formed using Stab, Stabskp., Pz.Jg.Kp, 1243 (StuG III) and 3./Pz.Jg.Abt. 243 of the 243. Inf.Div. which had been destroyed in Normandy and adding a new 1. Kp. [the original 1. Kp. became the Pz.Jg.Kp. 1363b for the 363. V.G.D.]. Since a Pz.Jg.Kp. 1176 already existed the Pz.Jg.Kp. 1243 apparently kept its old designation for months to come which explains the later StuG III deliveries to a no longer existing 243. Div.
Finally, on 13.3.1945 Pz.Jg.Abt. 1176 (176. I.D.) was renumbered to Pz.Jg.Abt. 176 while at the same time Pz.Jg.Abt. 176 of the 76. Inf.Div. was renamed to Pz.Jg.Abt. 76. This should have resulted in a renumbering of the Pz.Jg.Kpn. to 1243 (176. I.D.) => 1176 and 1176 (76. ID.) => 1076. It may have taken some time until this order made its way down the chain of command and reached the units.
Martin Block
P.S.: BTW, the complete allocation list for Jagdpz. 38 as well as many other AFV types can be found here http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=8113 Work on more is in progress.
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Martin Block
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Re: AFV deliveries to 176th division
To complete the above picture:
The 243. Inf.Div. received the 10 authorized StuG III for its Stu.Gesch.Abt. 1243 (=2./Pz.Jg.Abt. 243) during Feb and Mar 1944.
It could be that up to 4 of these had escaped destruction during the Normandy battles since 6 replacements were shipped during late Oct 1944, this time to the 176. Inf.Div.
By 1.12.1944 the number of available StuG III in Pz.Jg.Kp. 1243 had been reduced to 5.
1 new StuG III was sent on Dec 4, 1944 followed by another 4 on Dec 23, 1944.
At the very beginning of 1945 the company had still 9 StuG III available. By Mar 15, 1945 this had been reduced to 3 and the the final report from Apr 5, 1945 shows only 2 available with the 176. Inf.Div.
Martin Block
The 243. Inf.Div. received the 10 authorized StuG III for its Stu.Gesch.Abt. 1243 (=2./Pz.Jg.Abt. 243) during Feb and Mar 1944.
It could be that up to 4 of these had escaped destruction during the Normandy battles since 6 replacements were shipped during late Oct 1944, this time to the 176. Inf.Div.
By 1.12.1944 the number of available StuG III in Pz.Jg.Kp. 1243 had been reduced to 5.
1 new StuG III was sent on Dec 4, 1944 followed by another 4 on Dec 23, 1944.
At the very beginning of 1945 the company had still 9 StuG III available. By Mar 15, 1945 this had been reduced to 3 and the the final report from Apr 5, 1945 shows only 2 available with the 176. Inf.Div.
Martin Block
Re: AFV deliveries to 176th division
John and Martin, I once again learn that this archival document thing is trickier than at first glance. I should of noticed the "Kp." vs "Abt." . 
I see the delivery of 6 Stug to the division in BAMA RH10-349 and/or NARA T78R621, but thats the only deliveries to the division that I can find in those sets of documents. It would appear that I need further sets of sources to have a complete set of AFV delivery data.
Martin, I am writing a chapter of a book on the 176th, and I would be interested in using your information. Do you mind if I PM about your sources ?
thanks,
Mad Dog
I see the delivery of 6 Stug to the division in BAMA RH10-349 and/or NARA T78R621, but thats the only deliveries to the division that I can find in those sets of documents. It would appear that I need further sets of sources to have a complete set of AFV delivery data.
Martin, I am writing a chapter of a book on the 176th, and I would be interested in using your information. Do you mind if I PM about your sources ?
thanks,
Mad Dog