Need help with signature on this document. Does anyone know who Generalmajor in question? Possibly Karl Bottcher?
THANKS
Sasha
need help with DAK document
Moderator: John W. Howard
need help with DAK document
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Paddy Keating
Re: need help with DAK document
Some internet sources list Generalmajor Böttcher as the divisional commander when 21.Panzer-Division was forming up in Libya in August 1941. Generalmajor Karl Böttcher was in command of Artillerie-Kommando 104, which was posted to North Africa early in 1941 to provide Rommel's Afrika-Korps with artillery support.
Some internet sources refer to Generalmajor Böttcher as commander of 21. Panzer-Division at the beginning of August 1941, before Generalleutnant von Ravenstein assumed command of the new armoured division, a post he held until 29.11.1941, when he was captured by the British. Generalmajor Böttcher oversaw the Afrika-Korps' artillery operations during the fighting of 1941. Rommel was sufficiently impressed to give him command in November 1941 of Kampfgruppe Böttcher during the siege of Tobruk. KG Böttcher comprised Infanterie-Rgt 155, Afrika-Rgt 361 and Pionier-Btl 900, all drawn from the AK's 190. Leichte-Division. Böttcher was awarded the Ritterkreuz on 13.12.1941 and nominated commander of 21. Panzer-Division, with effect from 1.12.1941.
Rommel was so impressed by Böttcher's performance at Tobruk that he chose his artillery chief to replace Ravenstein as commander of 21. Panzer-Division. Was Generalmajor Böttcher was in Tripoli on 1.8.1941 in command of 21. Panzer-Division when, in fact, he was commander of Artillerie-Kommando 104 at the time? I have also never seen a grey KVK document before, although I am not saying that they did not exist. One always learns something new in this game.
PK
Some internet sources refer to Generalmajor Böttcher as commander of 21. Panzer-Division at the beginning of August 1941, before Generalleutnant von Ravenstein assumed command of the new armoured division, a post he held until 29.11.1941, when he was captured by the British. Generalmajor Böttcher oversaw the Afrika-Korps' artillery operations during the fighting of 1941. Rommel was sufficiently impressed to give him command in November 1941 of Kampfgruppe Böttcher during the siege of Tobruk. KG Böttcher comprised Infanterie-Rgt 155, Afrika-Rgt 361 and Pionier-Btl 900, all drawn from the AK's 190. Leichte-Division. Böttcher was awarded the Ritterkreuz on 13.12.1941 and nominated commander of 21. Panzer-Division, with effect from 1.12.1941.
Rommel was so impressed by Böttcher's performance at Tobruk that he chose his artillery chief to replace Ravenstein as commander of 21. Panzer-Division. Was Generalmajor Böttcher was in Tripoli on 1.8.1941 in command of 21. Panzer-Division when, in fact, he was commander of Artillerie-Kommando 104 at the time? I have also never seen a grey KVK document before, although I am not saying that they did not exist. One always learns something new in this game.
PK
Re: need help with DAK document
If you look at the stamp it shows 21st Panzer Division ( it is not very clear ) , and if this is true according to some sources on October 1st 1941 this division was formed. That is two months gap between official date and the date on this document. I was told that sometimes award citations were backdated? Could this happend here?
Paddy,
I was under impression that you are SS Fallchirmjäger specialist
Sasha
Paddy,
I was under impression that you are SS Fallchirmjäger specialist
Sasha
Re: need help with DAK document
here is partal list of Knight Cross holders signatures from MARSCH und KAMPF des DAK 1941 which includes same signature
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Paddy Keating
Re: need help with DAK document
Thanks for the note telling me that the document isn't grey. The order for 21. Panzer-Division to be formed from 5. Leichte-Division was dated 1.8.1941 although the new division was not ready until later in the year. However, some of its elements participated in an incursion through British lines into Egypt in mid-September so it was very in existence by then even if not yet formed. It is quite possible that Generalmajor Böttcher was in nominal command of the division at the beginning of August 1941 as a 'caretaker', in addition to his other DAK command duties, pending Generalleutnant von Ravenstein's arrival in Tripoli. I hope it is a pukka document because Böttcher won his RK for Tobruk. As a side note, enjoy the document I am posting, the preliminary RK document to the commander of Afrika-Rgt 361, which formed part of Böttcher's above-mentioned Battle Group at Tobruk, now in the collection of a fellow collector in France.
Yes, I have specialised in SS-Fallschirmjäger documents but the study of documents and the detective work required enables one to adopt the coldly analytical approach needed when appraising any German documents. LOL! In any case, I am in the process of moving my Fallschirmjäger document collection on because the tossers in this field outweigh the serious or even pleasant people and, like some other collectors at my level, I've had enough. Life is too short. The internet is a very useful tool but the main downside is the difficulty of avoiding the kind of people whom one treated like lepers at shows in the past. I'll still produce the book, some day, when I decide that I have amassed enough photographs but the fun element has been torn out of collecting WW2 German documents by the outrageous prices demanded and the general 'buggeration factor' involved, plus the fact that most people on these forums are seriously undereducated to the point of mental handicap. Like jackdaws, they will collect shiny things but without any actual appreciation of the history behind the objects. It is a pleasure to encounter someone thoughtful like yourself.
PK
Yes, I have specialised in SS-Fallschirmjäger documents but the study of documents and the detective work required enables one to adopt the coldly analytical approach needed when appraising any German documents. LOL! In any case, I am in the process of moving my Fallschirmjäger document collection on because the tossers in this field outweigh the serious or even pleasant people and, like some other collectors at my level, I've had enough. Life is too short. The internet is a very useful tool but the main downside is the difficulty of avoiding the kind of people whom one treated like lepers at shows in the past. I'll still produce the book, some day, when I decide that I have amassed enough photographs but the fun element has been torn out of collecting WW2 German documents by the outrageous prices demanded and the general 'buggeration factor' involved, plus the fact that most people on these forums are seriously undereducated to the point of mental handicap. Like jackdaws, they will collect shiny things but without any actual appreciation of the history behind the objects. It is a pleasure to encounter someone thoughtful like yourself.
PK
Re: need help with DAK document
Sasha.
No wiser as to the owner of the signature, but I'm trawling my way through war diaries even as we speak.
The date thing seems to be the fact that the order to change the title from 5th Leichte to 21st Pz Div was given on 1st August, and so all documents (that I've seen & bothered to check) on or after that date have the new title, even though the new unit structure was not officially adopted until October.
No wiser as to the owner of the signature, but I'm trawling my way through war diaries even as we speak.
The date thing seems to be the fact that the order to change the title from 5th Leichte to 21st Pz Div was given on 1st August, and so all documents (that I've seen & bothered to check) on or after that date have the new title, even though the new unit structure was not officially adopted until October.
Thanks. Dave.