SS Totenkopf Photos

[Mansal D]

Here is a few of my new photos (thanks to a WAF friend!). The first two are from an SS Totenkopf supply line I believe. The third photo is of a Totenkopf motorcycle crew I think. I hope you all enjoy this!

[Reb]

Nice pictures.

Funny how T Div men look. You can spot those guys easily in an uncaptioned photo. That gleam in their eye is not the gleam of idealism you see in some troops faces... they look like thugs to me.

I've never figured out how guys like that could be good soldiers but they apparently were.

cheers
Reb

[Spiegelsaal]

Wow, really nice photos, thank you for sharing!

In the bottom picture it's interesting how two of them look no older than 17.

[John P. Moore]

Reb said,

I've never figured out how guys like that could be good soldiers but they apparently were.

Reb - would you care to explain what exactly you meant by that comment above?

John

[Reb]

John

In the majority of pictures I've seen of T-Div people one or more usually more, looked to me like thugs. Very much people not the kind of guys that make recruiters swoon.

Their origin suggests that they were in fact thugs, although by midwar the whole div had no doubt turned over. Yet they still always managed to seem a bit sinister. (to my eye)

In my experience thugs, or bullies, make piss poor soldiers. Yet Totenkopf had a pretty good record as a fighting unit and men from T-Div ended up moving to other outfits and doing well. Papa Eicke must have put something in their oatmeal.

cheers
Reb

[John P. Moore]

Reb - Most people who have spent any time in combat have lost any gleam that they once might have had in their eye. It's usually a mistake to judge people by their appearance as a handsome officer with a dashing appearance could just as easily be a "thug" or otherwise disageeable. I have known quite a few veterans from the "Totenkopf" division and they weren't any different from those who served in other divisions. They certanly were not thugs.

John

[pzrmeyer2]

John

In the majority of pictures I've seen of T-Div people one or more usually more, looked to me like thugs. Very much people not the kind of guys that make recruiters swoon.

Their origin suggests that they were in fact thugs, although by midwar the whole div had no doubt turned over. Yet they still always managed to seem a bit sinister. (to my eye)

In my experience thugs, or bullies, make piss poor soldiers. Yet Totenkopf had a pretty good record as a fighting unit and men from T-Div ended up moving to other outfits and doing well. Papa Eicke must have put something in their oatmeal.

cheers
Reb

Howdy Reb,

I wonder if you might enlighten me on your eyeball defintion of thug? I mean, fom a still photo, what does a thug look like--or what attributes can divulge a thug from a regular guy?

thugs, or bullies, make piss poor soldiers. Yet Totenkopf had a pretty good record as a fighting unit and men from T-Div ended up moving to other outfits and doing well.

and isnt the above quote a contradiction?

just curious...

Erik

[Reb]

John

I'd guess the guys you met were not from the original Totenkopfverbande then. In my thugs comment I'm perhaps leaning a bit on my police academy and private security background - in the early photos of TDiv I have to say - many of them were exactly the kind of guys I'd give a second look were I to encounter them professionally. Leg breakers some call them.

The "look" is not based on fatigue or the "thousand yard stare," but rather a sort of Elvis style slant to the lips and a coldness in the eyes that has nothing to do with combat. Guarding KZ will do that to a man I suppose.

but your experience is personal and mine is based upon looking at photos so it might be wise to go with yours rather than mine.

cheers
Reb

[Reb]

Erik

Not a contradiction at all. "The Dirty Dozen" is a figment of some screen writer's imagination.

The best people make the best soldiers, and the best of the best seem to be from a rural or agricultural background although to my own surprise (excuse my southern prejudice here) I find that New York has supplied many good soldiers in its time.

I should add that many of the W-SS troops were from an agricultural background - just as an aside.

I've met a number of bully types in the military and they were to a man, useless when it mattered. The kind of toughness that counts in combat is moral - a bully is essentially a selfish sort, not given to self sacrifice. Such types rarely make it anywhere near an elite unit although there are execptions, I'd still call it a rule. (apologies to Sven Hassel! )

Does that answer your question?

btw - I confess to a certain admiration for the W-SS as soldiers but I've never warmed up to T-Div - because I suppose, of their KZ background and Papa Eicke - just not my type of folks. My opinion, wether justified or not - in no way detracts from their war record - I just remain surprised at how good that record was.

cheers
Reb

[pzrmeyer2]

Erik

Not a contradiction at all. "The Dirty Dozen" is a figment of some screen writer's imagination.

The best people make the best soldiers, and the best of the best seem to be from a rural or agricultural background although to my own surprise (excuse my southern prejudice here) I find that New York has supplied many good soldiers in its time.

I should add that many of the W-SS troops were from an agricultural background - just as an aside.

I've met a number of bully types in the military and they were to a man, useless when it mattered. The kind of toughness that counts in combat is moral - a bully is essentially a selfish sort, not given to self sacrifice. Such types rarely make it anywhere near an elite unit although there are execptions, I'd still call it a rule. (apologies to Sven Hassel! )

Does that answer your question?

btw - I confess to a certain admiration for the W-SS as soldiers but I've never warmed up to T-Div - because I suppose, of their KZ background and Papa Eicke - just not my type of folks. My opinion, wether justified or not - in no way detracts from their war record - I just remain surprised at how good that record was.

cheers
Reb

gosh! i dont recall introducing a Hollywood movie in to the discussion. I was referring to how you identify a thug from the still photos above.

I mean i cant tell if the men pictured above are farmer's sons, city dwellers, or just-released pickpockets.

Show me a still photos of some LA gang-bangers posing and flashing signs and I'll say "thugs!". But from these guys?

and as far as your quote, again, you say

A."In the majority of pictures I've seen of T-Div people one or more usually more, looked to me like thugs. Very much people not the kind of guys that make recruiters swoon. ...
...Their origin suggests that they were in fact thugs, Yet they still always managed to seem a bit sinister. (to my eye)"

and

B. "thugs, or bullies, make piss poor soldiers. '

yet

C. "Yet Totenkopf had a pretty good record as a fighting unit and men from T-Div ended up moving to other outfits and doing well.'

so either you beleive A & B or you believe C. they both can't be true to you, can they?

I mean then either thugs and bullies can make good soldiers or the Totenkopf men were not thugs, right?

[John P. Moore]

Reb - I have to say that Erik makes some very good points here.

John

[Paddy Keating]

Indeed...how does one define "thug"? There are photos of me where I look like a neo-nazi thug and there are also photos of me where I look like a queer. I admit it. Must be a side-effect of an expensive English education. Sorry, flippancy apart, the TK-VB had some very dodgy fellows in its ranks in the early days, because of Papa Eicke's recruiting criteria. But once part of the TK-VB was drawn into what would evolve into the Waffen-SS, that certainly changed. Some very good people served with the TK Division. I have personally known seven TK veterans, three of whom were officers and none of whom had a stain on their characters. In fact, Karlheinz Gieseler, who served with the TK Division, SS-FJ-Btl 500 and the Nordland (with whom he won the RK in Berlin) later served with the BW, retiring as Major. He was also head of the German Sports Association and pretty much Mr Olympics in West Germany for many years.

God, but I am so sick of reading rote-learned ballocks...

PK

[Reb]

Gentlemen

A collegue and I used to occassionally play a game we called "spot the bad guy" - we'd stand in a parking lot at rush hour and each silently pick drivers we thought we'd er, find interesting... The interesting part was we agreed better than 80% of the time. There's a look...

Wether this "skill" carries over to photos of WW2 I do not know - apprently not, from your comments. I'll not press the point since a) its no big deal to me, b) I was mostly intesested to see if anyone else got that impression - apparently not,

One question I'd pose to you all - (and I'm not trying to start an argument about thus - I'm ambivilent myself - all too ready to forgive anything in a good soldier): what are we to think of men who were transferred from guarding KZ, and b) what was the process, indoctrination, training or whatever, that turned men like that into good soldiers. As far as I'm aware they had probably less actual combat training than the other premier SS pz divs yet still performed to par.

And I'm not clear on this - perhaps someone could clarify - were the Totenkpopfverband trained as W-SS (theirs was originally sort of a third branch with W, and Allgemeine.)? I've assumed their training would have been more from a "police" perspective (in the early days).
------------------
Paddy - I define thug as criminal "tough guys" who in civilian life are typically muggers, bullies or employed as "enforcers" Its not how they look in terms of physical characterists, it IS how one looks to ME based on two years of associating with such. Many police officers have the look which to me signals, "thug."

if we were in a reasonable sized pub I could point out a few for you and you'd immediately know what I'm talking about.

------------------------
Erik - the fact that A=B etc etc was a pointless exercise. I'd allready noted that TDiv was well known for high combat effectiveness making it an exception to the rule - which doesn't invalidates the rule.

EG - Elvis Presley looked like a thug - top of the breed of course, but when I was in High School guys like him (and sadly, me ) were called "greasers" or "hoods." doesn't mean we all were, or that its incurable. Send us to the Totenkopfverbande for a couple years and who knows what we might have become.

I used the Dirty Dozen anology since that is the most talked about movie I am aware of when veterans are mocking war movies. Its supposition that criminals make good special ops guys is ludicrous. Have another drink and it will all fall into place. And I shall now follow my own advice.

cheers
Reb

[Mansal D]

Reb,

I can understand how you may feel about this particular unit, but let's not make too many harsh generalizations. I know TK veterans who are some of the nicest people in the world, and have since passed. They are special to me, and it hurts a bit to hear this.

Your opinion is your opinion, but I don't see how you can gather that from a picture. Anyway, that's my opinion. Hope you enjoy the photos.

Mansal

[Reb]

K98

I quite enjoyed the pictures. And please don't take offense at my silly generalizations.

To all - I will set myself a proper penance and soon as a little extra money comes my way I sentence myself to get "A cliff in the Ocean" and get more up to speed on TDiv.

cheers
reb