I can understand hope the German Veterans feel

[haen2]

Hi Haen,
Spurious Proposition Alert!.
You will not find a single attack by me here or anywhere else on the German soldier. Quite the contrary, I am a consistent admirer of the performance of the German Army and an advocate that more attention be paid to its achievements.

How do you think it improves your personal reputation or that of any cause you support to invent things so obviously false?

I challenge you to find a single post where I have denigrated the German soldier. You have several thousand to choose from. Well?
Cheers,
Sid.

Hi Sid; My remark was probably more based on the "tone" of your posts, that the actualwording; or at least MY feeling about what I read.
So, all said and done, if I affronted you, for what it is worth, my apology.
I really do not have the inkling to sift through all the posts, (my eyes are also not all that hot anymore)
So , PEACE ! to you and others I have had altercations with.
And by all means keep the info flowing.
Cheers ! HN

[Annelie]

Well, have things really progressed since the thread
"War Crimes" in summer of 2005?
Let's hope so!

[M48_Tanker]

As a Vietnam War veteran and now 64 years old I was asked the other day by what I consider to be an idiot, when he found out I was a Vietnam Vet, how much dope and drugs did I do in Vietnam. He was astounded when I replied that I had never done drugs period. My point is that the Vietnam Vet, just like the German Vet, has been painted with the same brush as to their conduct in war. The people using the paint brushes do not have a clue, as does not the public in general. It does not matter how anyone "feels" about German WWII Vets. The facts as to their treatment and respect factor are indisputable. I firmly believe that only another soldier, not a commentator, could understand that.

[Franz-Karner]

Leider verstehe ich nicht alles was hier in English geschrieben steht, aber ich hoffe ich habe den Sinn verstanden worum es hier geht


Ich habe meinen Schwiegervater von dieser Seite erzählt, leider hat er kein Internet (84 Jahre alt und ehm. angehöriger der SS Div Viking), was er mir dazu sagen konnte war folgendes.


Im Sommer 1942 sagte er beim Sonntagsessen "Den Krieg gewinnen wir, da bin ich mir sicher". Sein Vater antwortete ihm "Wenn du dich da mal nicht täuschst !!!!" es gab dann eine ellenlange Disscusion zwischen den beiden, die darin gipfelte das mein Schwiegervater sich eine Backpfeife einhandelte.

Anfang 1943 meldetet er sich freiwillig zur Waffen SS, kam als erstes nach Munsterlager zur Grundausbildung, hier gingen ihm zum erstemal die verblendetetn Augen auf. er erzählte mir einige Anektoten, wo ich dachte mein Gott...............................er sagte wörtlich "mann da sind wir 24 Std am Tag gefickt worden, nach 6 Wochen hätten wir alles gemacht um an die Front zu kommen um Feinde zu killen.
1944 war er bei der Ardennenoffensive dabei wo er in "Das Reich" eingegliedert wurde, er sagte da lagen wir in Russland alle 50 Meter im Dreck und als alle jungen Burschen abgezogen wurden um im Westen zu kämpfen lagen sie dort dann alle 100 Meter.
er sagt er hätte neue, gefütterte Stiefel bekommen, warme Wendejacken und ein StuG 44. naja wie es ausgegangen ist wissen wir ja. Aber das eigendlich, er kam 1949 aus der Gefangeschaft in Frankreich frei. An den Amerikanern hat er NIE ein schlechtes wort verloren, ganz im Gegenteil.
nach all diesen Jahren sagt er heute aus vollster Überzeugung, Hitler hat uns um unsre Jugend betrogen, wir sind verarscht worden von hinten bis vorne, unsere Naivität nutze man gnadenlos aus, wir waren eifach nur Menschenopfer und für die hohen Hernn: Dreck, Bauernopfer etc. Und er fühlt sich nicht als besiegter, oder ärgert sich das sie den Krieg verloren haben, was ihn bis heute aufregt ist die Tatasache das seine Kameraden und Freunde für einen größenwahnnsinigen gestorben sind. Er war deutscher Soldat, na und sagt er heute, auf was soll ich stolz sein, das sie mir Blech an die Brust geheftet haben, das bringt keinen meiner Freunde zurück. Er versteht es heute immer noch nicht das es Menschen gibt die sich die alten , stolzen, glorreichen Zeiten zurückwünschen. Diese Zeiten haben ihm nur Leid gebracht.


Btw, er mußte in Gefangenschaft Schiffe entladen im Hafen von Marsille, dort gabe es 2 Jahre lang Tomaten zu essen.
Setzt ihm heute mal ein Tomate vor

[mightythor99]

Hi Gerhard,

In my opinion, anybody who is stupid enough to have a go at Germans just for being German is undermining their own reputations, not those of Germans. Fortunately such Neanderthal idiots are the exception, not the rule.

Cheers,

Sid.

you have to remember, that just like the japanese americans in california,....who had been in the US for years, were taken out of their homes, and put into internment camps,.............til the war was over. they lost lots of $$, their businesses, etc. likewise, german americans were interviewed by the federal govt, and, if they were too "german" still,........or had strong ties to nazi germany,...........they were likewise, interned. there were many of them taken from cincinnati, ohio, which is close to where i live. i saw a tv show on arts and entertainment a year or so ago, and it was on this group of people. just north of the river in cinci, it is called, to this day, "over the rhein", and was an entire german community.
my mother is a war bride, she married an american soldier, and moved here after the war. we had been in two world wars against the germans,..........and you better believe she was persecuted. her mother in law asked her one time, if houses in germany had chimney's and fire places for heat in the winter, or did people just shiver all the time. she didnt like my mother for years,.........but, finally got over the fact that she was german, and she was here to stay. my grandmother was born in a log cabin, graduated college from indiana university in 1909, and rode a horse to school every day!
my mother learned to pronounce words without a german accent, so that people would not know she was german, and hold it against her in daily life. it was a serious issue in the 50's and 60's.
in northern indiana, when the japanese car companies first started coming here to build factories, a honda or subaru plant was built (in the 1990's), the city council wanted to "honor" the new industry's move, and they voted to rename the main street which led to it from the wwii memorial highway, or something like that, to subaru boulivard, or honda boulivard, and the wwii vets announced that they would no longer participate in the july 4th parade, and and and.....................
they were really pissed off. i worked in a mall for a while, and i'd ask people history questions, state questions, and that kind of stuff for fun. you would not believe how many people didnt know when wwii even was. a couple of girls who were juniors in college, that i knew,....really well , got in an argument over how many states were in the union,....51,...or 52!

[haen2]

So ? what's new ? Most younger generations know only a few things about history, since it is no longer a required curriculum.
Whatever still is taught as history, often is done by teachers with an agenda.
When I was teaching community college classes, I mentioned Worldwar 2.
One "highschool graduate with honors", asked me whether that was Korea, because she had watched MASH", or Vietnam ? (because her neighbors were vietnamese.
When I told her that war was between the Allies and the Axis forces, she wanted to know whether the U.S. had been with the Allies, or the Axis.
I gave up, and told her to get some videos from blockbuster.
HN

[Mansal D]

So ? what's new ? Most younger generations know only a few things about history, since it is no longer a required curriculum.
Whatever still is taught as history, often is done by teachers with an agenda.
When I was teaching community college classes, I mentioned Worldwar 2.
One "highschool graduate with honors", asked me whether that was Korea, because she had watched MASH", or Vietnam ? (because her neighbors were vietnamese.
When I told her that war was between the Allies and the Axis forces, she wanted to know whether the U.S. had been with the Allies, or the Axis.
I gave up, and told her to get some videos from blockbuster.
HN

So sad...

[phylo_roadking]

As someone who went through secondary education all the way doing history, then went to uni carrying the subject on - with the FULL intention of getting a post-graduate teaching diploma and earning a living TEACHING history....before I decided I didn't want to be a zookeeper as well...let me tell you why the average punter in the street is quite so ignorant....

Take WWII, and the history of various nations leading up to it - call it 20th Century Modern History; everything is geared towards exams to earn qualifications for employment or future education prospects at uni. School syllabuses are drawn up by retried teachers looking UP the line at the things kids are supposed to know BEFORE they get to uni...and nothing else. So they set out a list of things kids need to be taught, and parcel them up - "The Causes for the rise of Hitler", "German Foreign Policy Leading Up To WWII" "The Results of the Versailles Treaty" etc. etc. - a series of essay topics with "right" and "wrong" answers. No room for freeform thinking at all....

THESE syllabuses are handed down from examination bodies to schools - and whats the first thing a History Department does? Goes into its book store and looks at the piles of twenty- and thirty-year old textbooks. If they have enough for maybe one between two for a whole class - maybe ONE class in that whole year at a school get to do 20th Century Modern History. If there's enough books others get to do Napoleonic Europe, or the Industrial Revolution etc. etc. .....

Then TWO things occur - they spoonfeed pupils just enough from the textbooks to allow them to have enough "anecdotal" material - like maybe memorising ten reasons for the Rise Of Hitler out of a possible 15...but ten in an essay at exam time is enough to get a good grade, If you've got a good memory great! A SLIGHTLY better grade. The SECOND thing that occurs is that pupils are sent off to do "coursework", supposedly letting them study on their own and the results marked, and in some education systems earning a percentage of their marks that way. But where are they expected to get their information? That's right - the same 20- and 30- year old textbooks, or maybe a couple of books from the school library that are only 15 years out of date....

- and if you're very, VERY lucky....a couple of pupils in that class will actually be interested in what they're studying; noone every in this whole process asks the KIDS what they want to study.....

And right back at the very start of the system - that same retired set of history teachers who drew up the syllabus have sent an "approved" reading list along with it - of the SAME tired textbooks and out-of-date reference works, because they KNOW the schools already have them!!!

Teaching history isn't about learning what happened - it's like ANY OTHER SUBJECT; its about teaching pupils how LEARN and how to STUDY, and technically speaking it doesn't matter what unmitigated crap you feed them, teaching children nowadays is about teaching them how to learn and how to study - NOT the actual subject matter!

Some examples - just before anyone retorts?

The ONLY job my History Joint Honours degree got me was - as a Service Desk first-line support technician in a major computer company! Do-wot? The job specs said "had to have a third-level degree" so when I asked if my history degree counted - I was told "yes of course, its NOT about the subject matter nowadays, its about whether or not you've demonstrated the ability to learn"

And as for "reading lists" and other lists of reference works...has anyone with children undergoing the rigours of the UK's education system noticed that the mandatory literary classics set every year for English Literature...are ones with nice feature film adaptations to keep the kids interested??? When you hear kids arguing about Olivier's "Hamlet" versus Mel Gibson's you know the barbarians are at the gates.....and they're even cheaper to buy or rent than textbooks....!

[mightythor99]

it is called, "dumbying down america". i have a degree in telecommunications, and a more recent degree in yes,...you guessed it,....teaching history, to secondary education students. i graduated from a private boarding school, which was a military school,.............which has also changed drastically. when i graduated,....."some years ago"............it was, for me anyway, a lot of fun. i was in many different clubs and groups, and was pretty active in history as well. our history teacher was kind of a mono tone, and stood in front of the class, and lectured, BUT, at least he knew the subject matter. he was "old school". disipline was strict at the school.
after i got my teaching degree, there was a rumor that he was going to retire, and i went to a reunion, and talked to several people now in charge. the top two guys were people i had gone to school with, that were a few years older then me. the top one gave me the "we need ya" speech, so i sent in a resume, cover letter, and all the niceties. didnt hear anything back for two years.
when i did, i heard the same rumor, that mr. so and so was going to retire soon, and,.....if i would be willing to take THIS OTHER JOB first, i'd be in prime position when the teaching position opened up.
(job tip,.....if they are going to hold anything out on a stick, like a carrot,...they really dont NEED you for the other job, and you probably wont get it,....no matter what).
one of my best friends is a teacher in a public school, and he told me not to take the other job, that it would lead no where, but, being head strong, i took it. i became cadre', in a de-nutted military school, and was given a commission in the national guard, and went with it. the first day at work, i was accused of being a "spy" for the two guys above "us", and, for the next 9 months, one of my 'work mates" would tell me, about once or twice a week, that, "they will never fire you,.....you're alumni"..... (tip,...if you encounter this kind of attitude in the work place,...dont take it,....get in their face, in front of others, and put them in their place,....the shitter).
anyway, back to the history teaching position.
there was a "new" history teacher, she was fresh out of college, and had been at teh school for one year, and taught straight out of the book. her lesson plans were, "read the book outloud in class", then, homework was,...yes,...you guessed it...............read the book. she did not even know the material herself, she was pre reading it the day before, so she "knew" what she was going to teach, any questions,.....all she could do is go to the book, and try to find the answer for the kids.
i think i know a little more about history then she does...........
i saw her in action her second year, and she was still doing the same thing.
remember,....this is a private boarding school, where parents are paying $25-30k a year, to send their child here, not public school.
well, the one guy was right, they wouldnt just "fire" me, i worked through the entire year, but didnt get "re-hired" the next year. he and one other guy tossed enough @#% on me, that i was not re-hired for the next year. (both of them got fired, one at the beginning of the next year, the other one at the end of that same year). the history teaching job, went to one of the two guys' who were my "friends" wives,.............who had no teaching degree, no college degree at all,....just needed a job i guess.....
incidentally, they STILL have the teacher who reads right out of the book.

the federal govt has manipulated several things, they help subsidize school lunches, for schools that follow what they pass out, and, in my state in particular, which is very un original in its tactics, "we" used the state lottery to control schools as well.
when we were voting on whether to have a state lottery or not, (scratch off tickets, and power ball), the state legislature said that they would put "a %%" of the profit into the state school kitty, and thus, suckered in our elderly voters, who HATE the state lottery, but, figured that, since at least something will go towards education,....and, our education SUCKS SO BAD, that it was worth accepting the lottery proposition............
but, once it was in place,................our legislators came out and said, ....
we value education in our state SO highly, that we just dont feel that we can put it on a percentage basis,........for example,....what would we do, if the lottery LOSES money!?? well then,....education would suffer,.......so we just cant follow through on this folks,.....sorry".
instead,.....they put the "winnings" towards something important. they took the winnings, and knocked off hundreds of dollars off of the rich people's license plates,.......and upped the minimum $$ license plates. so, for example, if you drive a new cadillac, your license plates went from $1200, down to $600 a year. if you were driving a 1976 buick century,....well, your plates went from $24 a year,...to $45. sounds fair to me,.....i'm sure there are a lot more people driving new cadi's scratching off lotto tickets then the poor bastard driving the 30 year old hooptie,......RIGHT????

well, at least their thoughts are in the right place. since they have sold out all of our industry, and no one except the elderly are going to be owning homes here in 20 years, due to the huge increases in property taxes, if they keep turning out einsteins,...............it's just a matter of time, before einstein isnt going to want to work in a gas station to feed his family. right?

it's called, the dumbying down of america.

incidentally, the # of military schools has dropped drastically. in the early 90's, there was about 225 or so of them, a few years ago, there were 40 left,..............now, i think there are even less. ROTC used to help fund them, but the clinton admin pulled that away, and they are not allowed to teach anything "fun", other then map reading,..............probably since no one can read a damn map these days........................ no tactics, no fun stuff, no m-16's, m-60's, or any of the stuff any high school kid WANTING to go to a military school would be interested in..................so, the "quality" of kids there has deminished too,.............to a bunch of rich, snotty parents, who dont want to raise their own kids,..............but, if johnny gets disiplined,................they call and pitch a bitch, and the school caves in, and makes the person who disiplined johnny look like they were in the wrong. 70+% of them were on med's of some kind,.......we werent even allowed to know that kind of info,....patient confidenciality,......but, if the kid dropped on the playground, having a seizure,......we were supposed to know what was wrong with him, and know what to do. guess wrong at that point,...and you were packing.

[Annelie]

Yup, its getting to be a strange world.

Its not just dumbying down america, its happening everywhere.

[mightythor99]

when i was a student at that school, there were 400+ kids, many of who wanted to be there. when i worked there, 22 years later, there were 190, last year there were 125,.............not sure how many this year. same number of staff...........that hasnt changed. no more worked there when there were 400 kids.................
the quality of education has dropped. but, the icing on the cake, for me, was the "pep talk" we got, one staff meeting.
the superentendant came in, and said that, "you guys think we take just ANY kid, just for the money, but we are trying for quality children. i just wanted to let you know, that today, we turned down a boy. he doesnt have any charges yet, and is living with an aunt and uncle right now. he is accused of killing both of his parents. (evidently, his family had enough money to hold off the wolves/police, etc).
hey, i know it made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside,.....to look out for me so well.

[michael kenny]

Complaining about the failings of todays youth is not a new sport. Examples can be found in classical Greek writings. I think it is more an inability to realise 'we' are now the old generation and are just turning into our fathers.
"Turn that noise down..................you call that music? In my day we had real music from the Beatles and The Stones..............Mark my words lad you will come to no good with that attitude................."

[mightythor99]

and giving less quality of education, is not complaining about the youth. hey, when i was 18, i was full of piss and vinegar, and wanted to go to vietnam. it looked "fun" on tv, watching soldiers in the news clearing out jungles, loud explosions,.............that kind of thing. now-a-days though, i aint quite so full of vinegar,....piss,....maybe............. but i wouldnt be so glad to jump on the enlistment bus.
the point was, that the govt is producing lower quality teachers, and giving a lesser education, and charging more $$ for it. bread, and circuses, as in the days of the romans. they knew how to keep the minds active.......if not, then they killed em,....and the next ones,....kept their minds active,...actively!

[Knox]

Did you ever encounter "real" veterans, not the loud-mouthed veterans?

Our friend Rudi, he shared , and he wrote, to the best of his knowledge, conc. his "career", as a tanker.

What more does it need...?

Knox

[phylo_roadking]

There's nothing wrong with modern kids; humanity hasn't got congenitally stupider or a lesser attention span. You get in one side of the machine what you put in the other - and if its incorrect, patchy detail split up into "soundbites" tailored to pass exams put in one end - then that's what what they spout at the other. The problem is nothing makes it "sexy", attention-grabbing or even interesting. That required effort on the part of educators and nowhere are they paid for "effort". There are just SO many stimuli out there for kids that grab them by the senses first and hold on tighter.....

A couple of examples.....

Schools in England were told four years ago to use Peter Jackson's portrayal of the Riders of Rohan in the "Two Towers" as a way of showing schoolchildren how Anglo-Saxon English dressed and lived....because at least it stood a mild chance of grabbing their attention;

Last week the Church of England advised the use of bleedin' HARRY POTTER to teach kids about the difference between right and wrong....!!!

Pardon me? There was silly me thinking THE BIBLE had plenty about Right and Wrong, Good and Evil in it...maybe the Church of England have never heard of it?