Oradour sur Glane and Tulle

Enrico Mölders · Post by **Enrico Mölders** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 8:35 am

Hi,

last week I finished the Otto Weidinger's book of the regiment history of 4. SS Regiment 'Der Führer'.

Very impressive was the part about what happen June 1944 in Oradour sur Glane and Tulle.

The official istorical statement about is, that parts of the 4. SS Regiment 'Der Führer' executed hundreds of inoncent people in those villages as a act of revenge for the kidnapping and killing of members of 2. SS Pz Div 'Das Reich'.

Otto Weidinger ( last CO of 4. SS Regiment ) wrote in his book a total diffrent story.

For Tulle he wrote that 98 members of a local resitance gang called Marquise were hanged after the mayor of Tulle named them as mebers of this group.
The Marquise was a communistic oriented resistance group which were fighting against the germans as well as against french.

The group encircled in Tulle and around a german garnision and kidnapped and slaughterd nearly 200 members of the Wehrmacht, Wehrmachtshelferinnen, members of the german Reichsbahn ( railroad ), members of the german red cross ...

He mentioned fotodocuments which cleary show how those were killed ( burned, hanged on their feets ... ) In Nürnberg those pictures were presented to the tribunal.

All of the 98 hanged partisans were known members of the Marquise and no inocennt poor one which were on the wrong place at the wrong time.

For Oradour he wrote the official report of Dieckmann. There Dieckmann wrote that after they had executed the members of the Marquise and jailing the rest of the citizzens in the church, they begun to search the houses for weapons and amunnition.
In almost every house they found weapons ( most french and italian ones) and they burned down all those houses as it was an official Army order ( Sperrle Befehl ).

In some house the stored amunnition explode and burning parts flown everywhere away. Some of those parts hit the roof of the church and it begun to burn also. Suddenly a serie of explosions brought the entire building to collaps and burn. In the inferno noone were able to open the door of the church or to help those ones inside.

After receiving this report, Sylvester Stadler ( CO of 4. SS Regiment at that time ) ordered an investigation because everyone was shocked about this. Because of the situation at the normandie at all this investigation never ended in anything useful.

Now for me I'm extremely confused about what's true and what's not.
Otto Weidinger himself were called unguilty as well as many other senior officers of the regiment and division in a french trial in the fifties and so why should he lie ?!?!

bye Enrico

michael kenny · Post by **michael kenny** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 11:02 am

Guilt?. Weidinger's version of these MURDERS has no basis in reality. Only die-hard SS appologists clutch at this fiction. Let us see who defends it here.

Enrico Mölders · Post by **Enrico Mölders** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 11:31 am

Hi Michael,

thank you for the answer.

What makes me wonder is the fact that Weidinger give this topic such a big part in his book if he just want to tell us lies.
Wouldn't it be the best for him not to mention such cruelties ?

Don't understand me wrong, I won't appologies what happend and of course I can't say what's wrong and what's not, therefor I bring this topic up here.

Unfortunatly me english isn't the best and so I fear I'm sometimes confusing or misleading others with my thoughts.

bye enrico

heinz kling · Post by **heinz kling** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:08 pm

Partisans are not legally recognised as combatants and reprisals and summary executions are not out of order (witness the executions of Germans dressed as GIs by the Amis during the battle of the Bulge).

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:29 pm

heinz kling wrote:Partisans are not legally recognised as combatants and reprisals and summary executions are not out of order (witness the executions of Germans dressed as GIs by the Amis during the battle of the Bulge).

Thats comparing apples and oranges. The Germans dressed as GI's in the Ardennes (real and supposed "Skorzeny-männer") were not considered partisans, they were shot as spies. The victims in Oradour were not shot for being dressed as civilians.

Besides that, the main point with Oradour is not if reprisals against partisans were out of order or not because the story that all victims were known resistance members is a hoax made up by the involved Waffen-SS members to cover up the truth: that they massacred innocent civilians.

heinz kling · Post by **heinz kling** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:12 pm

What about the firebombing of German cities by the Bomber Command? That WAS and IS a crime. Btw, how comes nobody ever mentioned the atrocities commited by the cowardly partisans, all the mutilations and summary executions of captured German soldiers and policemen?

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:02 pm

heinz kling wrote:What about the firebombing of German cities by the Bomber Command? That WAS and IS a crime. Btw, how comes nobody ever mentioned the atrocities commited by the cowardly partisans, all the mutilations and summary executions of captured German soldiers and policemen?

Perhaps you missed the point that we're discussing Oradour here? Anyway, there's nothing cowardly in opposing the stronger army and policeforce of an aggressor that attacked and occupied your homeland, especially when that aggressor uses terror against innocent people, such as deportation and murder.

However, it is cowardly to kill innocent civilians. It is also cowardly to call these innocent civilians terrorists in a weak attempt to create an excuse for your crimes to escape justice.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 11:29 pm

Hi Enrico

I found this site a couple of days ago:
http://www.oradour.btinternet.co.uk/

A very sober site, with many good points concerning the events that took place at Oradur (and Tulle). I find it, a good "researched" site. He (The person behind the site) also adresses the question you mentioned, as to why Weidinger would write as he did. Suggest you take a look.

All the best
Chris

Enrico Mölders · Post by **Enrico Mölders** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 11:37 pm

Hi,

one question about what happen around Tulle ?

Do you also thnink that innocent ones were executed ?
Weidinger wrote they only take those who they caught with weapons or those who were named by the people especialy he mayor of tulle.

For me I couldn't say what a normal man will do after he wittnesed what happen to those who fell into the hands of the Marquise. Remember most of those victims weren't soldiers but Wehrmachtspersonal and members of the Reichsbahn without weapons.

bye Enrico

Juha Hujanen · Post by **Juha Hujanen** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 11:08 am

I would recommend Max Hastings book-Das Reich.The March Of The 2nd SS Panzer Division Through France for everyone who has interest of atrocities in Tulle and Oradour-sur-Glane.

According of that book only 2 of people executed in Tulle were maquisards for sure.There were no evidence against others.Vast majority of maquisards had fled out of town.
Germans accused selected men of being maquisards for things like that they wear dirty shoes,they were unshaven or were dirty.The innocent ones were indeed executed.

Regards/Juha

Timo · Post by **Timo** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 2:36 pm

Enrico Mölders wrote:For me I couldn't say what a normal man will do after he wittnesed what happen to those who fell into the hands of the Marquise. Remember most of those victims weren't soldiers but Wehrmachtspersonal and members of the Reichsbahn without weapons.

But I haven't seen prove yet for the assumed massacre of Wehrmachtpersonal and/or Reichsbahnpersonal without weapons. And on which info do you base your assumption that any of the Waffen-SS soldiers involved in the killings actually witnessed what happen to those who (supposedly) fell into the hands of the Maquisards?

pimberg · Post by **pimberg** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 3:54 pm

Are we saying that:-
1. The partisans/maquis/freedom-fighters/underground or whatever you want to call these people fought an honourable and fair war ?
2. Was Oradour a completely innocent village ?

Before I get "attacked" - please note I'm only asking the question(s). Unfortunately I have no doubt this discussion will get totally out of hand and the moderator will rightfully have to close the subject.
It's ironic that we who are sitting in comfort exchanging posts on such a subject start to get too emotional. Yet we are the first to criticise those who committed crimes (eg: Diekmann & Oradour) for being fanatical, over emotional, etc. I'm just glad I was never a young officer confronted by all these events.

Peter

michael kenny · Post by **michael kenny** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 4:22 pm

What type of Unit herds hundreds of women and children into a church and looks the doors. Then sets it alight, throws grenades in through the widows and shoots those who escape the flames. The implication in the previous post was that Oradour wasn't exactly 'innocent' and therefore deserves some of the 'blame' for what happened. Well excuse me if I say, from the comfort of my armchair, that there is absolutely no excuse for the murders. If of course you believe the SS reaction was just over the top care to tell us how many women and children burnt alive would have been 'proportional' and therefore understandable?.

pimberg · Post by **pimberg** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:00 pm

Michael,

I guess due to my post you ask:
1. What type of unit?
It was a unit far from being a traditional Waffen-SS unit. The 3rd Company was composed of very young conscripts, the majority Alsations. However that answer far from answers why they did it doesn't it.
2. How many women and children burnt alive would have been 'proportional' ?
Absolutely none. The events in the church, as you have described it, are inexcusable.

Peter

JEROME Georges · Post by **JEROME Georges** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:43 am

Lammerding was former chief of staff Bankenkampf units until he took over Das Reich.

after june 44, Das Reich with HQ in Montauban has purpose to protect links between Allantic Ocean and Medditerannee See
in South East.
Plan "Green" of french resistance was to stop movements of german troops for 10/15 days to allow allied to succed in strong point in Normandy.
Das Reich has numerous contacts with resistance in the south east and they were nervous because the country side in south east allow actions of partisans agains roads, bridges and railways and some times direct contacts with elements of WH and Waffen SS.
they is numerous cases of civilians killed in reprisal because partisans can't be caught out of the best know TULLE and ORADOUR
Case TULLE
A group of FTP (communist resistance) attack Tulle and took command of the town on 7 june.
German soldiers were killed during fights.
On 8 june Das Reich came and FTP left Tulle : 40 deaths.
for reprisal 120 people were hanged
Case of ORADOUR
RK Trager SS Stubaf KAMPFE was killed by resistance.
in reprisal Oradour was destroyed after killing unhabitants in harsch conditions (something like Lidice in 42).
The troops were young (including a number of alsatians mobilised) but officers were trained Waffen SS.
The message was strong agains resistance : don't attack us or you will have reprisals against civilians.
there is a german innnocent victim of this crime :
general von Brodowski kdr HVS 588 (clermont Ferrand ) alleged to have ordered Oradour. committed suicide in jail . He wasn't implicated in the decision.
these two actions were war crimes because victims were civilians and not armed partisans.

Feldgrau.net

Oradour sur Glane and Tulle

Oradour sur Glane and Tulle

Why should he lie?

According to the Geneva Convention

Re: According to the Geneva Convention

So if that was a war crime against civilians

Re: So if that was a war crime against civilians

OK lets be 'practical' about this.

Das Reich in South East