JASGripen,
Go to the site below and click on German Military then on Dugdale listing.
That will give all his books
Best regards,
Ron Klages
http://www.militarypress.co.uk/
German armor at Market Garden
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Ron Klages
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Where were the I pz. reg.of Frundsberg at the time? I checked the Pz. inspectors lists (were you can't see were the reg. is), but I Pz. reg of Frundsberg got sent 10 Panthers to it the 27/9, and they had 5 of them before that. No other entry for Frundsberg Panthers that months or the months close to September.
The 57 mm AT guns used by the Brits were getting Sabot ammo - not sure if they had it at that point in time. Ron - can you asnwer that one?
US gunners rarely had that ammo - only battle I'm aware of that they did was Butgenbach (Ardennes) where they used it to great effect.
Tankers taking AT fire can get rattled pretty easily regardless of calibre - 107 Pz Bde was relatively new as a unit (but contained some vets IIRC) which may have been a contributive factor.
cheers
Reb
US gunners rarely had that ammo - only battle I'm aware of that they did was Butgenbach (Ardennes) where they used it to great effect.
Tankers taking AT fire can get rattled pretty easily regardless of calibre - 107 Pz Bde was relatively new as a unit (but contained some vets IIRC) which may have been a contributive factor.
cheers
Reb
Jan Hendrik
The Frundsburg panthers must have come from Hohenstaufen is all I can figure since I concur with your statement that 10 SS didn't get its Panther Bn until Jan '45.
both Divs were laying hands on any equipment they could find however but at that time I'm unaware of any Panthers laying around in the vicinity - just a few Pz III, and Pz IV (older models).
cheers
Reb
The Frundsburg panthers must have come from Hohenstaufen is all I can figure since I concur with your statement that 10 SS didn't get its Panther Bn until Jan '45.
both Divs were laying hands on any equipment they could find however but at that time I'm unaware of any Panthers laying around in the vicinity - just a few Pz III, and Pz IV (older models).
cheers
Reb
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Scott Revell
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On paper this is correct - 10 Panthers were sent to the division and arrived in late September and they were "allocated toI/SS Pz. Rgt 10". However we can all agree that this battalion did not exist until early 1945. So the Panthers were sent officially to I./SS Pz 10 but actually were given to Kampfgruppe 'Knaust' which fought in the defense of Elst. A number of Panthers were knocked out in this area and photos of them suggest they are new as no markings are on the vehicles.JASGripen wrote:Where were the I pz. reg.of Frundsberg at the time? I checked the Pz. inspectors lists (were you can't see were the reg. is), but I Pz. reg of Frundsberg got sent 10 Panthers to it the 27/9, and they had 5 of them before that. No other entry for Frundsberg Panthers that months or the months close to September.
Scott
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Martin Block
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SS-Pz.Rgt. 10
That's incorrect I'm afraid!
The I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 existed throughout 1944 but due to lack of Panthers it took until Jan. 1945 before it finally joined its parent division:
9.3.1944 4 Pz. V shipped from a H.Za. (Heereszeugamt) to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Mailly-le-Camp, France
1.5.1944 Monthly status report I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (in Mailly-le-Camp): 4 Pz. V on hand, one each with 1. - 4. Kp.
1.6.1944 Monthly status report I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (in Mailly-le-Camp): 4 Pz. V on hand, one each with 1. - 4. Kp.
1.7.1944 Monthly status report I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (in Mailly-le-Camp): 4 Pz. V on hand, one each with 1. - 4. Kp.
9.7.1944 6 Pz. V shipped from a H.Za. to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Mailly-le-Camp, France
1.8.1944 Monthly status report I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (in Mailly-le-Camp): 10 Pz. V on hand, 2 each with Stabskp., 1. - 4. Kp.
10.8.1944 In his report to the 'Führer' the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. notes that 5 Panthers had been taken away from the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 for refitting active Panzer units in the West.
(i.e. I./SS-10 was down to 5 Panthers again)
22.8.1944 OKH/GenStdH/Op.Abt. orders transfer of I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 from Mailly-le-Camp, France to Grafenwöhr, Germany
27.9.1944 10 Pz. V shipped from a H.Za. to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Grafenwöhr, Germany
Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. adds the note '5 vorhanden' i.e. 5 already on hand. That indicates that I./SS-10 made it back from France with its 5 remaining Panthers.
Now you assume that these 10 Panthers went to 'Kampfgrupp Knaust' instead. This however did not happen, they went to I./SS-10 in Grafenwöhr as planned.
a) On 27.10.1944, i.e. with plenty of time to reflect the hectic events of Sep/Oct 1944, the BdE (CiC of the replacement army) prepared a repored about all
'Walküre' and 'Gneisenau' units drawn from the replacement army and sent to the front. Acoording to this report the OoB of Kampfgruppe Knaust was:
- Stab Pz.Gren.Btl. mit Pi.Zug und Nachr.Zug und 4 Pz.Gren.Kpn. (aus Pz.Gren.E.u.A.Btl. 16 und 57)
- 1 Pz.Kp. from Pz.E.u.A.Abt. 11 (AKA Pz.Kp. Mielke)
- 1 Pz.Jg.Zug from Pz.Jg.E.u.A.Abt. 6
Personnel strength:
12 Offz., 107 Uffz., 572 Mannsch.
Weapons and equipment:
31 l.MG
8 s.MG
8 m.Gr.Wf.
8 Pz. IV
7 Pz. III
1 Pz. II
3 Pak (Sf.)
2 le.SPW
59 Lkw
20 Pkw
21 Kräder
As you can see the unit had no Panthers.
b) Quote from an order issued by SS-Führungshauptamt on 22.9.1944 regarding the refit of SS Panzer units in the west: "Auf Tr.Üb.Pl. Grafenwöhr verlegte I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 bleibt den SS-Führungshauptamt unmittelbar unterstellt." i.e. it was not planned to move it to the front.
c) Every month the BdE filed a report about armored units forming and/or refitting in his area of responsibility. These reports go down to company level. All reports from September until December 1944 clearly show the full I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 training on Panthers in Grafenwöhr and waiting to finally be fully equipped with tanks. There is not the slightest indication that the Abteilung or even just a company from it were sent to Arnhem in Sep/Oct 1944.
d) A daily appendix to the war diary of the Ob. West was the so-called 'Stand der Transportbewegungen' in which track was kept on the whereabouts of all troop reinforcements moving towardss the front. Again there is not the slightest indication that I./SS-10 or parts of it were sent to Arnhem in Sep/Oct 1944.
e) The Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West was responsibly to supply and maintain all Panzer units in the west. In his war diary one can find a complete and detailed list of armor allocations arriving from 4.9. until 1.10.1944.
One can perfectly match all deliveries in this document with the September Panther allocations of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. because fortunately in both documents the train numbers are given. What you can't find however is the train with the 10 Panthers shipped to I./SS-10 on 27.9.1944. This indicates to me the were not shipped to 10. SS-Pz.Div. near Arnhem but to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Grafenwöhr.
The document prepared by the Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West also contains data about supply trains that were on the way but had not arrived by 1.10.1944. Once again the train with 10 Panthers for I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 does not appear which infact is not surprising to me since it was not on the way to the front but to Grafenwöhr.
f) On 10.10.1944 the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. presented to the 'Führer' an overview about Panther allocations made during September 1944. While all replacement Panthers shipped to the Western Front are simply summed up under 'Nachschub West' the 10 Panthers for I./SS-10 are listed seperately together with other units also refitting in the 'Reich'. Another clear indication that they did not go to the front.
To sum it up: So far NO concrete evidence has surfaced that the 10. SS-Pz.Div. received any direct deliveries of new Panthers nor that I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 or elements of it joint its parent division in September 1944 as has been claimed in recent publications!
Now on to the next problem: It is a little disputed fact that 10. SS-Pz.Div. fielded some Panthers from the beginning of October 1944 at the latest.
Who manned the Panthers?
Surplus crews from II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10! For more explanation see text below.
Where did the Panthers come from?
IMHO there are three possibilities:
1.) On 9.9.1944 the 1. SS-Pz.Div. LAH received the order to hand over all remaining equipment to the 9. SS-Pz.Div.. The 9. SS-Pz.Div. was to stay on the front while the the 10. SS-Pz.Div. was to return to Germany for refit.
But on 12.9.1944 the order was changed again. The 1. SS-Pz.Div. LAH was to hand over all remaining equipment to the 10. SS-Pz.Div. instead because now the 10. SS-Pz.Div. was to stay on the front while the the 9. SS-Pz.Div. was to return to Germany for refit.
How many Panthers I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 had left (couldn't have been many anyway), to what extend or if at all this order was carried out I could not establish, but here we have possible source no. 1 for some of 10. SS-Pz.Div. Panthers.
2.) The so-called Pz.Stützpunkt Nord (a temporary tank maintenance facility near Düren) on 14./15.9.1944 reported to the Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West that he had 12 Panthern under repair that formerly belonged to the 12. SS-Pz.Div.. It was intended to distribute them to 2. and 9. Pz.Div. (Heer). I do not know what actually happened to them, but it is possible that events around Arnhem changed plans. Here we have possible source no. 2 for 10. SS-Pz.Div. Panthers.
3.) The third possible source - and my current favorite - is a very simple one: I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9!
On 19.9.1944 the allocation records of the Gen.Insp.d.z.Tr. show a shipment of 20 Panthers and 2 Bergepanthers as 'Nachschub West' to the front without a specific unit mentioned. The records of the Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West show that these 22 tanks were already picked up the very next day by the 9. SS-Pz.Div.!
Already beginning 30.9./1.10.1944 the 9. SS-Pz.Div. started pulling out of the front line for refit in Germany. A few days later OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. ordered 9. SS-Pz.Div. to leave all armor behind for divisions remaining on the front.
I find it pretty logic that 9. SS then handed over its remaining tanks to 10. SS as it had already been intended before Arnhem.
Knocked out new Panthers near Elst can easily be explained for instance with I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 supporting 10. SS-Div. (why is it automatically considered that any Panthers operating in 10. SS sector must have belonged to that division???)
How does the story of 10. SS-Pz.Div. Panthers continue?
Unfortunatly the status reports and OoB of 10. SS-Pz.Div. dated 1.10., 1.11. und 1.12.1944 have not survived in the archives. The next one is dated 1.1.1945. But this shows something very interesting:
The II./SS-Pz.Rgt. is shown organized as follows: 5. und 8.(Pz. V) Kp., 6. und 7.(Pz. IV) Kp. with a total of 35 Panthers.
That fits exactly to known strength reports and known Panther shipments:
12.10.1944: 10. SS-Pz.Div. reports 15 Panthers on hand (Dugdale)
3.11.1944: 10. SS-Pz.Div. reports 13 Panthers on hand (Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr.)
8.12.1944: 25 Panthers shipped from H.Za. to 10. SS-Pz.Div. (Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr.)
10.12.1944: 10. SS-Pz.Div. reports 10 Panthers on hand + 25 in the process of delivery (Ob. West)
1.1.1945: 10. SS-Pz.Div. reports 35 Panthers on hand (10. SS)
One again to make it clear: The 35 Panther on 1.1.1945 were with the division, i.e. with 5. an 8. Kp. of II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 NOT with I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 still in Grafenwöhr.
Finally on 3.1.1945 OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. orders to fill up SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 as follows:
Pz.Rgt.Stb. u. Stbs.Kp.
1 Pz. V Abt. mit 60 Pz. V
1 Pz. IV Abt. mit 45 Pz. IV
For this the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 is ordered to leave Grafenwöhr and join its parent division organized as follows:
Abt.Stb., Stbs.Kp. u. Versorg.Kp.
2 Pz. V Kpn.
1 Pz. IV Kp.
Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. will allocate:
30 new Panther
14 new Pz. IV
Formation is to be completed by 8.1.1945
Actually only 25 new Panthers were then shipped from H.Za. between 6. and 11.1.1945 to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10.
Looks like someone recalculated. If already 35 Panthers were present with II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 the I./SS-z.Rgt. 10 needed only 25 to achieve a total of 60.
The next OoB is dated 1.2.1945 and finally shows the I. Abteilung with the division. Tanks are distributed as follows:
Pz.Rgt.Stbskp. = 3 Panther, 8 Flakpz. IV(3,7)
Stbskp. I. Abt. = 3 Panther, 1 Bef.Pz. III, 2 Bergpanther
1. Kp. = 15 Panther
2. Kp. = 8 Panther
3. Kp. = 12 Panther
4. Kp. = 11 Panther
Stbskp. II. Abt. = 3 Pz. IV
5. Kp. = no tanks
6. Kp. = 18 Pz. IV
7. Kp. = 17 Pz. IV
8. Kp. = no tanks
Werkst.Kp. = 2 Bergepanther
i.e. the Panthers of the 5. and 8. Kp. have now been incorporated into the die I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10.
Shortly afterwards the captured American 'Sherman' tanks during Operation 'Nordwind' were formed into the 5./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10.
Summary: The few surviving records lead me to the conclusion that during early Oct 1944 at the latest the II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 took over up to 15 Panthers from Panzer units leaving the front for refit in Germany.
(9. SS?, 12. SS? 1. SS? or others?). If one believes in W. Tieke's repeated statements in his history of the II. SS-Pz.Korps crews must have come first from 6. and/or 7. Kp. since he claims more than once the other two companies of the II. Abt. had no tanks during th fall of 1944.
Changes must have been made after the delivery of 25 Panthers and 34 Pz. IV at the beginning of Dec 1944 at the latest since by the end of the year divisional records show II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 with 5. and 8. Kp. (Panthers), 6. and 7. Kp. (Pz. IVs).
In early Jan 1945 SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 was to be finally filled up to 2 full Abteilungen. For that the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 joined the regiment coming from Grafenwöhr with 2 Kpn. (25 new Panthers) and 1 Kp. Pz. IV (personnel only).
The already Panther equipped 5. and 8. Kp. transfered to I. Abteilung which then had 4 full Panther Kompanien. The II. Abteilung concentrated all Pz. IV in two reinforced Kompanien (6. u. 7.) and equipped the 5. Kp. with captured American 'Sherman' tanks.
I'm perfectly aware this is totally contradictory to what post war literature claims so far, but evaluation of available records gives a very different picture to what has been written!
Martin Block
im Oktober 2006
The I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 existed throughout 1944 but due to lack of Panthers it took until Jan. 1945 before it finally joined its parent division:
9.3.1944 4 Pz. V shipped from a H.Za. (Heereszeugamt) to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Mailly-le-Camp, France
1.5.1944 Monthly status report I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (in Mailly-le-Camp): 4 Pz. V on hand, one each with 1. - 4. Kp.
1.6.1944 Monthly status report I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (in Mailly-le-Camp): 4 Pz. V on hand, one each with 1. - 4. Kp.
1.7.1944 Monthly status report I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (in Mailly-le-Camp): 4 Pz. V on hand, one each with 1. - 4. Kp.
9.7.1944 6 Pz. V shipped from a H.Za. to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Mailly-le-Camp, France
1.8.1944 Monthly status report I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 (in Mailly-le-Camp): 10 Pz. V on hand, 2 each with Stabskp., 1. - 4. Kp.
10.8.1944 In his report to the 'Führer' the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. notes that 5 Panthers had been taken away from the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 for refitting active Panzer units in the West.
(i.e. I./SS-10 was down to 5 Panthers again)
22.8.1944 OKH/GenStdH/Op.Abt. orders transfer of I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 from Mailly-le-Camp, France to Grafenwöhr, Germany
27.9.1944 10 Pz. V shipped from a H.Za. to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Grafenwöhr, Germany
Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. adds the note '5 vorhanden' i.e. 5 already on hand. That indicates that I./SS-10 made it back from France with its 5 remaining Panthers.
Now you assume that these 10 Panthers went to 'Kampfgrupp Knaust' instead. This however did not happen, they went to I./SS-10 in Grafenwöhr as planned.
a) On 27.10.1944, i.e. with plenty of time to reflect the hectic events of Sep/Oct 1944, the BdE (CiC of the replacement army) prepared a repored about all
'Walküre' and 'Gneisenau' units drawn from the replacement army and sent to the front. Acoording to this report the OoB of Kampfgruppe Knaust was:
- Stab Pz.Gren.Btl. mit Pi.Zug und Nachr.Zug und 4 Pz.Gren.Kpn. (aus Pz.Gren.E.u.A.Btl. 16 und 57)
- 1 Pz.Kp. from Pz.E.u.A.Abt. 11 (AKA Pz.Kp. Mielke)
- 1 Pz.Jg.Zug from Pz.Jg.E.u.A.Abt. 6
Personnel strength:
12 Offz., 107 Uffz., 572 Mannsch.
Weapons and equipment:
31 l.MG
8 s.MG
8 m.Gr.Wf.
8 Pz. IV
7 Pz. III
1 Pz. II
3 Pak (Sf.)
2 le.SPW
59 Lkw
20 Pkw
21 Kräder
As you can see the unit had no Panthers.
b) Quote from an order issued by SS-Führungshauptamt on 22.9.1944 regarding the refit of SS Panzer units in the west: "Auf Tr.Üb.Pl. Grafenwöhr verlegte I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 bleibt den SS-Führungshauptamt unmittelbar unterstellt." i.e. it was not planned to move it to the front.
c) Every month the BdE filed a report about armored units forming and/or refitting in his area of responsibility. These reports go down to company level. All reports from September until December 1944 clearly show the full I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 training on Panthers in Grafenwöhr and waiting to finally be fully equipped with tanks. There is not the slightest indication that the Abteilung or even just a company from it were sent to Arnhem in Sep/Oct 1944.
d) A daily appendix to the war diary of the Ob. West was the so-called 'Stand der Transportbewegungen' in which track was kept on the whereabouts of all troop reinforcements moving towardss the front. Again there is not the slightest indication that I./SS-10 or parts of it were sent to Arnhem in Sep/Oct 1944.
e) The Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West was responsibly to supply and maintain all Panzer units in the west. In his war diary one can find a complete and detailed list of armor allocations arriving from 4.9. until 1.10.1944.
One can perfectly match all deliveries in this document with the September Panther allocations of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. because fortunately in both documents the train numbers are given. What you can't find however is the train with the 10 Panthers shipped to I./SS-10 on 27.9.1944. This indicates to me the were not shipped to 10. SS-Pz.Div. near Arnhem but to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Grafenwöhr.
The document prepared by the Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West also contains data about supply trains that were on the way but had not arrived by 1.10.1944. Once again the train with 10 Panthers for I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 does not appear which infact is not surprising to me since it was not on the way to the front but to Grafenwöhr.
f) On 10.10.1944 the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. presented to the 'Führer' an overview about Panther allocations made during September 1944. While all replacement Panthers shipped to the Western Front are simply summed up under 'Nachschub West' the 10 Panthers for I./SS-10 are listed seperately together with other units also refitting in the 'Reich'. Another clear indication that they did not go to the front.
To sum it up: So far NO concrete evidence has surfaced that the 10. SS-Pz.Div. received any direct deliveries of new Panthers nor that I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 or elements of it joint its parent division in September 1944 as has been claimed in recent publications!
Now on to the next problem: It is a little disputed fact that 10. SS-Pz.Div. fielded some Panthers from the beginning of October 1944 at the latest.
Who manned the Panthers?
Surplus crews from II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10! For more explanation see text below.
Where did the Panthers come from?
IMHO there are three possibilities:
1.) On 9.9.1944 the 1. SS-Pz.Div. LAH received the order to hand over all remaining equipment to the 9. SS-Pz.Div.. The 9. SS-Pz.Div. was to stay on the front while the the 10. SS-Pz.Div. was to return to Germany for refit.
But on 12.9.1944 the order was changed again. The 1. SS-Pz.Div. LAH was to hand over all remaining equipment to the 10. SS-Pz.Div. instead because now the 10. SS-Pz.Div. was to stay on the front while the the 9. SS-Pz.Div. was to return to Germany for refit.
How many Panthers I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 1 had left (couldn't have been many anyway), to what extend or if at all this order was carried out I could not establish, but here we have possible source no. 1 for some of 10. SS-Pz.Div. Panthers.
2.) The so-called Pz.Stützpunkt Nord (a temporary tank maintenance facility near Düren) on 14./15.9.1944 reported to the Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West that he had 12 Panthern under repair that formerly belonged to the 12. SS-Pz.Div.. It was intended to distribute them to 2. and 9. Pz.Div. (Heer). I do not know what actually happened to them, but it is possible that events around Arnhem changed plans. Here we have possible source no. 2 for 10. SS-Pz.Div. Panthers.
3.) The third possible source - and my current favorite - is a very simple one: I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9!
On 19.9.1944 the allocation records of the Gen.Insp.d.z.Tr. show a shipment of 20 Panthers and 2 Bergepanthers as 'Nachschub West' to the front without a specific unit mentioned. The records of the Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West show that these 22 tanks were already picked up the very next day by the 9. SS-Pz.Div.!
Already beginning 30.9./1.10.1944 the 9. SS-Pz.Div. started pulling out of the front line for refit in Germany. A few days later OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. ordered 9. SS-Pz.Div. to leave all armor behind for divisions remaining on the front.
I find it pretty logic that 9. SS then handed over its remaining tanks to 10. SS as it had already been intended before Arnhem.
Knocked out new Panthers near Elst can easily be explained for instance with I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 supporting 10. SS-Div. (why is it automatically considered that any Panthers operating in 10. SS sector must have belonged to that division???)
How does the story of 10. SS-Pz.Div. Panthers continue?
Unfortunatly the status reports and OoB of 10. SS-Pz.Div. dated 1.10., 1.11. und 1.12.1944 have not survived in the archives. The next one is dated 1.1.1945. But this shows something very interesting:
The II./SS-Pz.Rgt. is shown organized as follows: 5. und 8.(Pz. V) Kp., 6. und 7.(Pz. IV) Kp. with a total of 35 Panthers.
That fits exactly to known strength reports and known Panther shipments:
12.10.1944: 10. SS-Pz.Div. reports 15 Panthers on hand (Dugdale)
3.11.1944: 10. SS-Pz.Div. reports 13 Panthers on hand (Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr.)
8.12.1944: 25 Panthers shipped from H.Za. to 10. SS-Pz.Div. (Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr.)
10.12.1944: 10. SS-Pz.Div. reports 10 Panthers on hand + 25 in the process of delivery (Ob. West)
1.1.1945: 10. SS-Pz.Div. reports 35 Panthers on hand (10. SS)
One again to make it clear: The 35 Panther on 1.1.1945 were with the division, i.e. with 5. an 8. Kp. of II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 NOT with I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 still in Grafenwöhr.
Finally on 3.1.1945 OKH/GenStdH/Org.Abt. orders to fill up SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 as follows:
Pz.Rgt.Stb. u. Stbs.Kp.
1 Pz. V Abt. mit 60 Pz. V
1 Pz. IV Abt. mit 45 Pz. IV
For this the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 is ordered to leave Grafenwöhr and join its parent division organized as follows:
Abt.Stb., Stbs.Kp. u. Versorg.Kp.
2 Pz. V Kpn.
1 Pz. IV Kp.
Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. will allocate:
30 new Panther
14 new Pz. IV
Formation is to be completed by 8.1.1945
Actually only 25 new Panthers were then shipped from H.Za. between 6. and 11.1.1945 to I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10.
Looks like someone recalculated. If already 35 Panthers were present with II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 the I./SS-z.Rgt. 10 needed only 25 to achieve a total of 60.
The next OoB is dated 1.2.1945 and finally shows the I. Abteilung with the division. Tanks are distributed as follows:
Pz.Rgt.Stbskp. = 3 Panther, 8 Flakpz. IV(3,7)
Stbskp. I. Abt. = 3 Panther, 1 Bef.Pz. III, 2 Bergpanther
1. Kp. = 15 Panther
2. Kp. = 8 Panther
3. Kp. = 12 Panther
4. Kp. = 11 Panther
Stbskp. II. Abt. = 3 Pz. IV
5. Kp. = no tanks
6. Kp. = 18 Pz. IV
7. Kp. = 17 Pz. IV
8. Kp. = no tanks
Werkst.Kp. = 2 Bergepanther
i.e. the Panthers of the 5. and 8. Kp. have now been incorporated into the die I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10.
Shortly afterwards the captured American 'Sherman' tanks during Operation 'Nordwind' were formed into the 5./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10.
Summary: The few surviving records lead me to the conclusion that during early Oct 1944 at the latest the II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 took over up to 15 Panthers from Panzer units leaving the front for refit in Germany.
(9. SS?, 12. SS? 1. SS? or others?). If one believes in W. Tieke's repeated statements in his history of the II. SS-Pz.Korps crews must have come first from 6. and/or 7. Kp. since he claims more than once the other two companies of the II. Abt. had no tanks during th fall of 1944.
Changes must have been made after the delivery of 25 Panthers and 34 Pz. IV at the beginning of Dec 1944 at the latest since by the end of the year divisional records show II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 with 5. and 8. Kp. (Panthers), 6. and 7. Kp. (Pz. IVs).
In early Jan 1945 SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 was to be finally filled up to 2 full Abteilungen. For that the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 joined the regiment coming from Grafenwöhr with 2 Kpn. (25 new Panthers) and 1 Kp. Pz. IV (personnel only).
The already Panther equipped 5. and 8. Kp. transfered to I. Abteilung which then had 4 full Panther Kompanien. The II. Abteilung concentrated all Pz. IV in two reinforced Kompanien (6. u. 7.) and equipped the 5. Kp. with captured American 'Sherman' tanks.
I'm perfectly aware this is totally contradictory to what post war literature claims so far, but evaluation of available records gives a very different picture to what has been written!
Martin Block
im Oktober 2006
Last edited by Martin Block on Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:25 am, edited 6 times in total.
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michael kenny
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Scott Revell
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Martin,
Your detailed response makes me think that I stand corrected. Looks like I fell to the mistake of believing the information in some published sources.
However I think some of what I said still stands. My previous post was written badly. The original makeup of Kampfgrupe Knaust did not include Panthers - correct. However Kampfgruppe Knaust was grown after the 22/9 to include Panthers and Tigers in the Defence of Elst and further engagements in the Betuwe. Your information proves where they have come from.
Thanks again for the detailed information.
Scott
Your detailed response makes me think that I stand corrected. Looks like I fell to the mistake of believing the information in some published sources.
However I think some of what I said still stands. My previous post was written badly. The original makeup of Kampfgrupe Knaust did not include Panthers - correct. However Kampfgruppe Knaust was grown after the 22/9 to include Panthers and Tigers in the Defence of Elst and further engagements in the Betuwe. Your information proves where they have come from.
Thanks again for the detailed information.
Scott
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Hans Weber
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Hello
In November 44. Frundsberg was pulled out at Arnhem, transfered to the Aachen sector and recommitted, now serving under XXXVII A.K.
Parts recommitted were (as announced to Gen.Kdo XXXVII on Nov. 21st)
Div Stab with Begleit Kompanie and Feldgend. Komp.
1 Pz. Kp, SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 with 15 Pz V. The rest of the Regiment (sic) was left behind at RUURLO for refreshing. This is the same sector the Div was considered to be refreshing when Market Garden happened.
1 sch.Pz.Kp. "Hummel" with 10 Pz VI
1 Pz.Flak Zug
Parts of the Versorgungskompanie SS-Pz.Rgt. 10
2 Batl. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt.21, namely I. (SPW) and III./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21
2 Batl. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 22, namely I. and II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 22
the missing two Bns were left behind at RUURLO (without one 13. and two 14.Kpn, which were taken along).
SS-AA 10 (without 1 Kp refreshing)
SS-Art.Rgt. 10 with two le Abtlg. = 36 guns; 1. s.Abt. s.F.H. = 18 s.F.H.; 1 Kanonen-Abt = 8 cannons
SS-Flak Abtlg. 10
SS-Pio Btl. 10
SS-Pz.Jg.Abtlg. 10 (without 3. Kp which was equipped with 8,8 cm guns, towed) - 2 Kp. Pz.Jg. IV
SS-Nachr.Abt. 10
SS-San.Abt.10
SS-Verw.Tr.Abt. 10
SS-Pz.Div.Na.Tr. 10
SS-Pz.Inst.Abt. 10
The round number of 15 Panthers at this date makes me wonder if the Division suceeded to free at least the Kp of I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 that was training on 15 Panthers since the start of October at Grafenwöhr. Before Market Garden, the Division seems to have tried in vain to get this Bn back (Tieke p. 304: The divisional command ..... constantly tried to get its I. Abteilung, then stationed at St. Wendel und Winterbach in the Black Forrest.) It's likely they tried again later and maybe in November, their plea was heard.
Interestingly, when I./SS-Pz Rgt. 10 finally left Grafenwöhr in Jan.45, it did so with only 3 line companies (Stab, Stabs- and Versorgungskompanie, 2 Cos with Panthers, one Co to be equipped with P IV). Where was the fourth line company?
Any ideas?
Cheers
Hans
In November 44. Frundsberg was pulled out at Arnhem, transfered to the Aachen sector and recommitted, now serving under XXXVII A.K.
Parts recommitted were (as announced to Gen.Kdo XXXVII on Nov. 21st)
Div Stab with Begleit Kompanie and Feldgend. Komp.
1 Pz. Kp, SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 with 15 Pz V. The rest of the Regiment (sic) was left behind at RUURLO for refreshing. This is the same sector the Div was considered to be refreshing when Market Garden happened.
1 sch.Pz.Kp. "Hummel" with 10 Pz VI
1 Pz.Flak Zug
Parts of the Versorgungskompanie SS-Pz.Rgt. 10
2 Batl. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt.21, namely I. (SPW) and III./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 21
2 Batl. SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 22, namely I. and II./SS-Pz.Gren.Rgt. 22
the missing two Bns were left behind at RUURLO (without one 13. and two 14.Kpn, which were taken along).
SS-AA 10 (without 1 Kp refreshing)
SS-Art.Rgt. 10 with two le Abtlg. = 36 guns; 1. s.Abt. s.F.H. = 18 s.F.H.; 1 Kanonen-Abt = 8 cannons
SS-Flak Abtlg. 10
SS-Pio Btl. 10
SS-Pz.Jg.Abtlg. 10 (without 3. Kp which was equipped with 8,8 cm guns, towed) - 2 Kp. Pz.Jg. IV
SS-Nachr.Abt. 10
SS-San.Abt.10
SS-Verw.Tr.Abt. 10
SS-Pz.Div.Na.Tr. 10
SS-Pz.Inst.Abt. 10
The round number of 15 Panthers at this date makes me wonder if the Division suceeded to free at least the Kp of I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 that was training on 15 Panthers since the start of October at Grafenwöhr. Before Market Garden, the Division seems to have tried in vain to get this Bn back (Tieke p. 304: The divisional command ..... constantly tried to get its I. Abteilung, then stationed at St. Wendel und Winterbach in the Black Forrest.) It's likely they tried again later and maybe in November, their plea was heard.
Interestingly, when I./SS-Pz Rgt. 10 finally left Grafenwöhr in Jan.45, it did so with only 3 line companies (Stab, Stabs- and Versorgungskompanie, 2 Cos with Panthers, one Co to be equipped with P IV). Where was the fourth line company?
Any ideas?
Cheers
Hans
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Martin Block
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@ Michael
Sorry, I do have only strenght reports of some units while they were based in Mailly not any complete overviews about the tank status of all units based there.
With regard to Tiger units I have to admitt that I decided to quit any research on them because there were and still are already enough able people working on them. So with rare exceptions I keep my mouth shut when it comes to Tiger battalions.
@ Scott
Yes you are right, there is no doubt that Kampfgruppe Knaust was reinforced with Tigers and Panthers. But from available records to me it is clear without any reasonable doubt that they were just temporary attached from other units. The Panthers for instance most likely were some of 20 new ones just being picked up by crews from I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 (and not I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 to stress that once again).
@ Hans
From what I have written above based on original records I think I it is save to say that without reasonable doubt the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 as such did not leave Gravenwöhr until Jan 1945 and thus did not take part in the Sep/Oct battles near Arnhem. I also stick to my claim there so far is no evidence whatsoever of Panthers and/or crews from I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 being transferred in from Grafenwöhr.
- Fact is that the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 (9. SS-Pz.Div.) picked up 20 new Panthers on 20.9.1944
- Fact is that German armor (like K.Gr. Knaust reinforced by some 8 Panthers) was able to cross the Arnhem road bridge beginning shortly after midday on 21.9.1944 [Kershaw, p. 221] and move into the Elst area held by elements of 10. SS-Pz.Div..
- Fact is that on 22.9.1944 SS-FHA ordered I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 to remain just were it was, i.e. in Grafenwöhr, and continue training. No mentioning of giving up any tanks nor personnel, nothing.
There are few possible units for Panthers around Elst before 30.9.1944:
a) If possibily 1.) and/or 2.) from my earlier post are correct it could theoretically have been crews from II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 using ex 1. SS and/or 12. SS Panthers. While writing this down I myself begin to have doubts about it considering the following much more reasonable option.
b) Much more likely it were Panthers of I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 attached to 10. SS-Pz.Div.. The unit had just the day before picked up brandnew Panthers. Photos of knocked out Panthers in the Elst area I know of show mostly new Ausf. G with little or no tactical or unit markings. No wonder, there had been hardly any time to apply any and there were more important things to worry about!
According to local historian and author M. Zwaarts there were about half a dozen Panther wrecks found and photographed in the Elst area after the battle. Taking into account that I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 probably did bring back also a handfull of Panthers from Normandy, that would easily leave some 15 or so Panthers on hand when the 9. SS-Pz.Div. left the area at the beginning of October. I don't see any evidence so far that all 20 new Panthers were lost near Arnhem during the last decade of September.
- Fact is that 9. SS-Pz.Div. was ordered to leave behind all tanks for other units when it left the area in early October. That this order was carried out is indirectly confirmed by looking at later tank deliveries and status reports. As you know the 9. SS was pulled out of the front lines for refit and did not see any combat action again until December in the Ardennes. Thus no further Panther losses could have had occured during Oct/Nov 1944.
On 8.12.1944 the division reported having 33 Panthers on hand plus 25 still on the way. This totals 58 and matches exactly the shipments of Panthers to the division between 23.11. and 4.12.1944. Had 9. SS brought back some Panthers from Holland the figures should have been higher. The 8.12.1944 figures confirm to me they did in fact not but left them behind.
While I do not have a written order that 9. SS was to hand over the remaining approx. 15 Panthers to 10. SS IMHO there is at least a strong probability that they were transferred from one SS division to the other.
Through the years I have studied again and again
- the status reports of 9. and 10. SS-Pz.Div.
- most of the the war diaries of Ob. West for the 3rd quarter of 1944
- the the war diaries of the OKH/Gen/StdH/Org.Abt. for the 3rd quarter of 1944
- countless armor related documents from OKH/Chef H Rüst u BdE/AHA files
- minutes of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. conferences with his 'Führer'
- the war diary of the Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West for the 3rd quarter of 1944
Nowhere I found the slightest evidence of elements of I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 transfered with or without tanks to its parent division before January 1945. Shouldn't such a transfer have left just a little note or something somewhere in one of these files, especially if an actual transport of tanks was involved?
Before the publication of the Concord pictorial about German armor at Arnhem back in 2001 no one ever came up with the thought of I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 or even elements of it engaged in that area. Everyone took it as a fact that 10. SS-Pz.Div. had only remnants of the mixed II.(Pz. IV/StuG III) Abt. while the I.(Pz. V) Abt. was back in Germany training on Panthers not joining the division until Jan 1945. Events around Arnhem had been researched in archives and by contacting veterans etc. by many people for many years.
From an argument with the author of that booklet years ago on the ML forum and some private e-mail contact with him I learned that this was nothing but an interpretation made by him on the basis of a few known facts:
He knew that I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 had received 10 Panthers earlier during 1944.
He knew that 8 Panthers attached to K.Gr. Knaust went to Elst and thus into the sector held by 10. SS-Pz.Div..
Photos showed knocked out Panthers near Elst.
So he simply concluded the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 must have joined the division in September 1944. He had no documentary evidence of any kind, it was just a guess!
That mistake can happen to everyone (and I do not exclude myself from that!). The problem is that what has been published is out there for ever and thus considered to be a fact by thousands of readers. This 'white elephant' will continue to run wild for many years to come and these elusive animals are almost impossible to kill (you may have heard about others still at large like "30 new Panthers for 11. SS in 1945" or "s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 661 with Hetzers attached to PD Clausewitz" to name a few).
Regarding the transfer order for I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 from Jan 1945 with 2 Panther Kpn. and 1 Pz. IV Kp.:
a) If one Kp. had already left Grafenwöhr before that date shouldn't this be reflected in the order in the usual way, i.e. with the addition "(ohne 1 Kp.)"? It is not!
Same applies to monthly overviews by ObdE. Other units with missing companies are marked that way. Was this just forgotten with I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Oct, Nov. and Dec 1944?
b) Couldn't it equally have been much simpler and personnel of 1 Kp. was left behind for other purposes? Were the 4 Kpn. at full personnel strength at all? Were there perhaps just men enough to form three full Kpn.? Who can tell?
I'm afraid that stubborn "Mr. Know-it-all-and-even-better" in me is not yet ready to follow your argumentation
Martin Block
Sorry, I do have only strenght reports of some units while they were based in Mailly not any complete overviews about the tank status of all units based there.
With regard to Tiger units I have to admitt that I decided to quit any research on them because there were and still are already enough able people working on them. So with rare exceptions I keep my mouth shut when it comes to Tiger battalions.
@ Scott
Yes you are right, there is no doubt that Kampfgruppe Knaust was reinforced with Tigers and Panthers. But from available records to me it is clear without any reasonable doubt that they were just temporary attached from other units. The Panthers for instance most likely were some of 20 new ones just being picked up by crews from I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 (and not I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 to stress that once again).
@ Hans
From what I have written above based on original records I think I it is save to say that without reasonable doubt the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 as such did not leave Gravenwöhr until Jan 1945 and thus did not take part in the Sep/Oct battles near Arnhem. I also stick to my claim there so far is no evidence whatsoever of Panthers and/or crews from I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 being transferred in from Grafenwöhr.
- Fact is that the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 (9. SS-Pz.Div.) picked up 20 new Panthers on 20.9.1944
- Fact is that German armor (like K.Gr. Knaust reinforced by some 8 Panthers) was able to cross the Arnhem road bridge beginning shortly after midday on 21.9.1944 [Kershaw, p. 221] and move into the Elst area held by elements of 10. SS-Pz.Div..
- Fact is that on 22.9.1944 SS-FHA ordered I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 to remain just were it was, i.e. in Grafenwöhr, and continue training. No mentioning of giving up any tanks nor personnel, nothing.
There are few possible units for Panthers around Elst before 30.9.1944:
a) If possibily 1.) and/or 2.) from my earlier post are correct it could theoretically have been crews from II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 using ex 1. SS and/or 12. SS Panthers. While writing this down I myself begin to have doubts about it considering the following much more reasonable option.
b) Much more likely it were Panthers of I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 attached to 10. SS-Pz.Div.. The unit had just the day before picked up brandnew Panthers. Photos of knocked out Panthers in the Elst area I know of show mostly new Ausf. G with little or no tactical or unit markings. No wonder, there had been hardly any time to apply any and there were more important things to worry about!
According to local historian and author M. Zwaarts there were about half a dozen Panther wrecks found and photographed in the Elst area after the battle. Taking into account that I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 probably did bring back also a handfull of Panthers from Normandy, that would easily leave some 15 or so Panthers on hand when the 9. SS-Pz.Div. left the area at the beginning of October. I don't see any evidence so far that all 20 new Panthers were lost near Arnhem during the last decade of September.
- Fact is that 9. SS-Pz.Div. was ordered to leave behind all tanks for other units when it left the area in early October. That this order was carried out is indirectly confirmed by looking at later tank deliveries and status reports. As you know the 9. SS was pulled out of the front lines for refit and did not see any combat action again until December in the Ardennes. Thus no further Panther losses could have had occured during Oct/Nov 1944.
On 8.12.1944 the division reported having 33 Panthers on hand plus 25 still on the way. This totals 58 and matches exactly the shipments of Panthers to the division between 23.11. and 4.12.1944. Had 9. SS brought back some Panthers from Holland the figures should have been higher. The 8.12.1944 figures confirm to me they did in fact not but left them behind.
While I do not have a written order that 9. SS was to hand over the remaining approx. 15 Panthers to 10. SS IMHO there is at least a strong probability that they were transferred from one SS division to the other.
Through the years I have studied again and again
- the status reports of 9. and 10. SS-Pz.Div.
- most of the the war diaries of Ob. West for the 3rd quarter of 1944
- the the war diaries of the OKH/Gen/StdH/Org.Abt. for the 3rd quarter of 1944
- countless armor related documents from OKH/Chef H Rüst u BdE/AHA files
- minutes of the Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. conferences with his 'Führer'
- the war diary of the Gen.d.Pz.Tr. West for the 3rd quarter of 1944
Nowhere I found the slightest evidence of elements of I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 transfered with or without tanks to its parent division before January 1945. Shouldn't such a transfer have left just a little note or something somewhere in one of these files, especially if an actual transport of tanks was involved?
Before the publication of the Concord pictorial about German armor at Arnhem back in 2001 no one ever came up with the thought of I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 or even elements of it engaged in that area. Everyone took it as a fact that 10. SS-Pz.Div. had only remnants of the mixed II.(Pz. IV/StuG III) Abt. while the I.(Pz. V) Abt. was back in Germany training on Panthers not joining the division until Jan 1945. Events around Arnhem had been researched in archives and by contacting veterans etc. by many people for many years.
From an argument with the author of that booklet years ago on the ML forum and some private e-mail contact with him I learned that this was nothing but an interpretation made by him on the basis of a few known facts:
He knew that I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 had received 10 Panthers earlier during 1944.
He knew that 8 Panthers attached to K.Gr. Knaust went to Elst and thus into the sector held by 10. SS-Pz.Div..
Photos showed knocked out Panthers near Elst.
So he simply concluded the I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 must have joined the division in September 1944. He had no documentary evidence of any kind, it was just a guess!
That mistake can happen to everyone (and I do not exclude myself from that!). The problem is that what has been published is out there for ever and thus considered to be a fact by thousands of readers. This 'white elephant' will continue to run wild for many years to come and these elusive animals are almost impossible to kill (you may have heard about others still at large like "30 new Panthers for 11. SS in 1945" or "s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 661 with Hetzers attached to PD Clausewitz" to name a few).
Regarding the transfer order for I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 from Jan 1945 with 2 Panther Kpn. and 1 Pz. IV Kp.:
a) If one Kp. had already left Grafenwöhr before that date shouldn't this be reflected in the order in the usual way, i.e. with the addition "(ohne 1 Kp.)"? It is not!
Same applies to monthly overviews by ObdE. Other units with missing companies are marked that way. Was this just forgotten with I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 in Oct, Nov. and Dec 1944?
b) Couldn't it equally have been much simpler and personnel of 1 Kp. was left behind for other purposes? Were the 4 Kpn. at full personnel strength at all? Were there perhaps just men enough to form three full Kpn.? Who can tell?
I'm afraid that stubborn "Mr. Know-it-all-and-even-better" in me is not yet ready to follow your argumentation
Martin Block
Last edited by Martin Block on Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Martin Block
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Almost forgot to mention the fate of the Panthers I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 had already received in 1944. While I do not actually know what happend to them because there is no trace of them in the records IMHO they could have either already been used as replacements for other units or were simply left behind in Grafenwöhr for continued training purposes while I./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 received 25 new ones of the most up-to-date 'Ausführung' for front line service.
Martin Block
Martin Block
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michael kenny
- Associate
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- Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2002 5:09 am
- Location: Northern England
A pity. What I was asking for is exactly what would be based at Mailly as 'training tanks'. They must have had some tanks attached to the camp for crew training. Where would such documentation be kept?Martin Block wrote:@ Michael
Sorry, I do have only strenght reports of some units while they were based in Mailly not any complete overviews about the tank status of all units based there.
With regard to Tiger units I have to admitt that I decided to quit any research on them because there were and still are already enough able people working on them. So with rare exceptions I keep my mouth shut when it comes to Tiger battalions.
The reason is there are a number of 'odd' Tigers (3 at least) floating around during the retreat phase out of France. These Tigers do not belong to any of the Tiger Units that did fight in the West so the only place they could have come from was Mailly.
There are also the 5 Tigers that were 'sent' to France as replacements but never arrived. Maybe these are the ones Fred mentioned recently on another Forum.
Over at Dupuy Zetterling posted a message saying he had the hull numbers of the (invisible)Tiger 1's allocated to (fkl)316 and these numbers would show what type they were and make it easier to track them down. I wrote asking for the numbers but never got a reply.
As far as I know Schneider is the only one doing any 'research' in this area (Normandy)and he is too quick to make positive ID's when caution is advised.
Martin, thanks for your extensive posts, they are of great interest. I don't see how it can be in any other way, than that the Panthers were left in Holland. You can both argue that it is plausible that they are left behind based on figures and reefer to the well known order that the 9th should transfer equipment to its sister division.
And on top of that, it really seems as a strange decision that any division would transfer any heavy equipment from a front of this nature, back to rear areas in Germany. It can be understandable that divisions which were transferred in a hurry between theaters could keep their heavy equipment. But in this case, having heavy fighting going on all around, with lots of brigades and divisions which could use replacement equipment, then taking the tanks with them away from the front? It seems as one does not have to argue about this. Those (if there are any) who think that they kept their tanks with them into Germany are those who have to come up with evidence about that.
Please continue to post on the subject in general.
And on top of that, it really seems as a strange decision that any division would transfer any heavy equipment from a front of this nature, back to rear areas in Germany. It can be understandable that divisions which were transferred in a hurry between theaters could keep their heavy equipment. But in this case, having heavy fighting going on all around, with lots of brigades and divisions which could use replacement equipment, then taking the tanks with them away from the front? It seems as one does not have to argue about this. Those (if there are any) who think that they kept their tanks with them into Germany are those who have to come up with evidence about that.
Please continue to post on the subject in general.
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Martin Block
- Enthusiast
- Posts: 416
- Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 11:09 am
I have just been told that in no. 30 of the French magazine "Panzer voran" one can find several photos of SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 Panther Ausf. G which were knocked out in the Kilstett area during January 1945. Two of them have turret numbers beginning with a '5'. That would confirm my story of Panthers in the 5. and 8./II./SS-Pz.Rgt. 10 from about Oct. 1944 until Jan. 1945 before being incorporated into the I./Pz.Rgt. 10 arriving from Grafenwöhr and finally joining 10. SS-Pz.Div.
Martin Block
Martin Block