Best division in the Waffen SS??

[Igorn]

"Wiking" made it to the Caucasus mountains

And what? The entire HG "A" of Generals List & Kleist made it ti the Caucasus but as known "Wikings" failed to execute the HG "A" mission to capture Grozny oil fields as well as the orders of Hitler to continue the attack toward Tuapse resulting in the failure of the Caucasus campaign.

From the order of Generaloberst von Kleist sent a Teletype message to the "Wiking" division on 28 September 1942:

The entire field army is looking to your division. You have the task of paving the way for the field army toward Grossny. I expect your armored spearheads to be at Ssagopschin this evening at 1800 hours.

and survived the Cherkassy kessel.

Some facts: As a result of their escape from Cherkassy "Wikings" lost at least 1/3 of its personnel in KIA, MIA and WIA, it lost all its panzers (12 of PzIIIs, 8 of Pz-IVs ready for action plus panzers in repair and maintenance, all StuG's (4 StuG in its 4th Company + a battery of Wespe howitzers, "Wallon" Brigade attached to "Wiking" lost all theirs 33 units of StuG), Wikings lost all SPW's, all half-trucks (overall Germans lost in Cherkassy pocket over 10,000 vehicles !!!), all guns and all artillery, all motorcycles, all horses and Panje-Wagons.

Peter Strassner is witnessing: "After the 5.SS Panzer-Division "Wiking" had escaped the Cherkassy pocket, its remaining forces were assembled behind of the sector of the III. Panzer-Corps west of Risino. All had barely escaped with their lives and whatever they had carried with them-perhaps a bread bag and, at most, a light handheld weapon such as a rifle, submachinegun or pistol. That was all.

It spearheaded the relief attempt on Budapest.

And what? Konrad-I, Konrad II and Konrad III's operations decisively failed and the besieged forces of the SS Obergruppenfuhrer Pfeffer-Wildenbruch in Budapest including 8. SS-Kavallerie Division "Florian Geyer" and 22. SS Freiwilligen-Kavallerie Division "Maria Therisia" were annihilated.

"The Fuhrer has given this mission to the IV. SS-Panzer-Korps and expects of his divisions that they imbued to the last man with a tremendous, unstoppable desire to advance forward and the iron will to reach the objectives assigned to them under all circumstances"

"We will push on to the final objective, because it must and will be reached. The courageous, hard-fighting garrison of Budapest is counting on us!"

From the order of the Commanding General IV-SS-Panzer-Korps Obergruppenfuhrer SS Herbert Gille

The Budapest relief attempt had cost "Wikings" heavy losses in both personnel and vehicles.

They arrived to Hungary with 18,800 men and approx. 80 panzers and assault guns. As of February 4th 1945, according to Maier, on the average, the armored divisions (3.SS and 5.SS) had only 10 serviceable tanks at their disposal and the Panzergrenadier regiments had been reduced to fighting strengths of 100 to 200 men. Only from 1-7 January the both SS divisions lost about 3,000 men.

It Few Divisions endured as much and kept on fighting to the end. Hell, one of its armor commanders even managed to pull a group of uncompleted Jagdpanthers from a half-destroyed factory in 1945 to continue the fight.

According to Strassner the failure of the third relief attempt, the difficult defensive fighting and the beginning of the retreat had cost heavy losses in men and material... Fighting a delaying action and suffering heavy casualties, the division moved back toward Stuhlweissenburg... In a rapid advance, the Soviets succeeded in practicully surrounding the city of Stuhlweissenburg and its defenders... as a result the Division Commander, SS-Standartenfuhrer Ulrich, decided to give up Stuhlweissenburg. By doing so, he was contravening a Fuhrer order. It was a decision that could not have been a pleasant one for a soldier like Ulrich... Howver, the armored elements-tanks, assault guns, armored personnel carriers and the self-propelled guns of the II./SS=Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 5 - were all lost in running battles with new enemy formations that continually appeared...When increasingly panicky forces were seen fleeing to the west around noon, it was clear that the southern front had collapsed"

Peter Strassner. European Volunteers

Wiking endured the Ostfront for nearly five years--only a certain few Heer Panzer divisions managed that!

What about Totenkopf SS division?

Best Regards from Russia,

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Yes Igor we all know who won the war.

Say, after Cherkassy, didn't Wiking kick some serious Soviet ass at Kovel?

Best,
~D, the EviL

[Igorn]

Yes Igor we all know who won the war.

Say, after Cherkassy, didn't Wiking kick some serious Soviet ass at Kovel?

Best,
~D, the EviL

Here we go. I refer you to the SS Armor on the Eastern Front 1943-1945 of Velimir Vuksic and Peter Strassner the European Volunteers. From these books you will learn that the 8.SS-Panzer-Regiment 5, commanded by SS Obersturmfuhrer Nicolussi-Leck having 17 brand new Panthers before their attack had lost 10 Panthers and 15 crewmembers of his company just in four days - On 27.03.44 five Panthers were bogged down in a swamp, on 27.03.44 three Panthers lost to enemy fire, by 14.30 hours on 27.03.44 three more Panthers bogged down in swamp. Two Panthers more bogged down. at 04.00 hours on 30.04.44 two Panthers lost to mines. Damaged tanks were blown up (...He was severely wounded in the attempt, but brought his decimated company and Kampfgruppe Faas to the German lines after blowing up the damaged tanks, Strassner).

And now about remaining "Wikings" in besieged Kovel: "Employment of the rest of the 5. SS-Panzer-Division "Wiking" could not be justified. With the exception of certain elements, the divisional assets had no heavy weapons, vehicles or even field kitchens. The divisional artillery had no guns or prime movers. If committed, the artillerymen would have had to fight on foot just like remnants of SS-Panzer-Aufklarungs-Abteilung 5 and SS-Flak-Abteilung 5.

Let's be clear. Without commitment of LVI Panzer-Korps of General der Infanterie Hossbach comprising of the 4. Panzer Division of General von Saucken and the 5. Panzer-Division of General Decker - the SS Panzer-Regiment 9 "Germania", equipped with 75 brand new Panthers would had not be able to rescue besieged Wikings.



Let me remind you that only four Soviet Rifle divisions confronted to three German panzer divisions in the area of Kovel (according to above sources). So, I don't see it as the great achievment.

Best Regards from Russia,

[Andy H]

Wasn't that more to do with the fact that there was no where else that it could be deployed, given its national(ity) makeup?

And Sid and Andy, I'm sure you have an actual source for this proposition? I mean, it's not just conjecture is it?

Hi David

I can't speak for Sid but it was my understanding (rightly or wrongly) that they weren't deployed in the west for the simple reason that they may end up fighting fellow countrymen (be they uniformed or not) etc.

You may deem it conjecture but equally it could be construde as a postulation or inference. Also the lack of an order, does not in itself mean/prove anything.

Regards

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Andy, the division was created on December 1, 1940, well before the invasion of Russia. I just want to see some folks back up their assertions with facts.

Igor, nice of you to reply. Gee, those must have been some really well-equipped infantry divisions, since at the Battle of Maciejow, Wiking reported 103 Russian tanks destroyed in half an hour.

I know what your reply will be--you can't trust German sources on destroyed Soviet tanks, especially when they tarnish your argument.

But then, the Shtat covering this period doesn't allot any tanks to the normal organization of even a Guards Infantry Division, so, either all of these tanks were imaginary or something more than 4 Soviet infantry divisions were engaged at Kovel.

Very Best,
David (P.S. I can't believe I'm posting on the S.S. Board It seems so "Anti-Soviet" some how.... )

[Andy H]

"The SS man's ability to remain calm in the face of disaster, his willingness to fight on against impossible odds, his lust for killing Russians, and most important, his readiness to perish rather than retreat and appear weaker than his racial enemy were all qualities that proved crucial throughout the war in retrieving hopeless situations; they became hallmarks of the Totenkopfdivisions's performance wherever it fought."

from Sydnor

The war in the East was very different from that in the West. The Soviet soldiers displayed comparable suicidal aggressiveness, fanatical defense and courage as the soldiers of the Waffen SS. Against this enemy, the Waffen SS formations earned their legendary reputation. Through it all, the Waffen SS divisions maintained an extremely high level of esprit de corps , morale, and a deep trust in their officers. This combined with the most advanced weapons of warfare available made the Waffen SS formations formidable foes.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/ww ... enss2.aspx

Regards

[oleg]

Andy, the division was created on December 1, 1940, well before the invasion of Russia. I just want to see some folks back up their assertions with facts.

Igor, nice of you to reply. Gee, those must have been some really well-equipped infantry divisions, since at the Battle of Maciejow, Wiking reported 103 Russian tanks destroyed in half an hour.

I know what your reply will be--you can't trust German sources on destroyed Soviet tanks, especially when they tarnish your argument.

But then, the Shtat covering this period doesn't allot any tanks to the normal organization of even a Guards Infantry Division, so, either all of these tanks were imaginary or something more than 4 Soviet infantry divisions were engaged at Kovel.

Very Best,
David (P.S. I can't believe I'm posting on the S.S. Board It seems so "Anti-Soviet" some how.... )

Total number of tanks/sau allotted to Polesie offensive was actually quite miniscule by Soviet standards – namely 120. Kovel itself specifically was targeted by 47th Army, which implemented double pincer using 143, 60 and 260 rifle divisions for the northern claw – attacking form the line Borovno – Velikiy Obzir towards Nesuhozhie and two rifle divisions (75 and 328) from the line Navuz –Toplino to encircle city form the South. The main thrust of German deblockading offensive fell on 143 rifle- which could not hold it. That being said by April 5th Soviet armor strength was at 191 – that is higher than it was before the offensive. Considering that the main armor strength was allotted to cavalry corps that did not even engaged in battle -107 destroyed tanks appear to be rather optimistic estimate on part of German commanders.

[Commissar D, the Evil]

So, now we have 5 Rifle divisions and somewhere between 120-191 tanks? This gets more interesting as it develops and definitely doesn't cast a shadow on Wiking's achievement at Kovel.

Two things, one, where did all that Soviet armor come from? Secondly, at normal strength, wouldn't five rifle divisions deploy close to 500 anti-tank rifles and 76mm cannon and other field guns or self-propelled guns above or at 76mm in calibre?

But, better than me guessing, exactly how many armor-destroying weapons did those five divisions bring to bear against one German division? And how many men, since we know Wiking was understrength?

Here we have Wiking initially fighting an entire Soviet Army.....definitely nothing to sneeze at.........

Very Best,
David

[oleg]

So, now we have 5 Rifle divisions and somewhere between 120-191 tanks? This gets more interesting as it develops and definitely doesn't cast a shadow on Wiking's achievement at Kovel.

Two things, one, where did all that Soviet armor come from? Secondly, at normal strength, wouldn't five rifle divisions deploy close to 500 anti-tank rifles and 76mm cannon and other field guns or self-propelled guns above or at 76mm in calibre?

But, better than me guessing, exactly how many armor-destroying weapons did those five divisions bring to bear against one German division? And how many men, since we know Wiking was understrength?

Here we have Wiking initially fighting an entire Soviet Army.....

Very Best,
David

Two things, one, where did all that Soviet armor come from? Secondly, at normal strength, wouldn't five rifle divisions deploy close to 500 anti-tank rifles and 76mm cannon and other field guns or self-propelled guns above or at 76mm in calibre?

Infantry divisions by 1944 usually had some Su-76 attached to them.

47th Army had 937 guns and mortars at the beginning of the operation and 1564 at the end of it. Most of the Armor, like I said belonged to Cavlry corps, that were in the Front reserve and were never committed into battle. 120 -191 tanks and SAU refers to the entire Front.47th armor strength fluctuated between 20 and 61 –depending on the day.
Army How many AT guns they had – I don’t know.

But, better than me guessing, exactly how many armor-destroying weapons did those five divisions bring to bear against one German division? And how many men, since we know Wiking was understrength?

You make it sound as if all of the 47th Army ganged up on Wicking simultaneously – might I ask how concluded that this was the case? In addition to that all Soviet units were under strength as well and suffered from the lack of ammo. Wicking did put up a good fight utilizing its advantage in mobility but lets not make it into some yet another slaughter of “Bolshevik hordes”. In addition to that fighting in Polesie tied down German reserves and that allowed 1st Ukrainian Front to defeat left wing of AG South; also bridgehead created by Polesie offensive was used as a spring-board for Lublin-Brest offensive 3 moths later.


P.S What is interesting is how many destroyed Soviet tanks/SAU other German units claimed – I assume there were other claims in addition to 107 of the Wicking.


[/quote]

[Commissar D, the Evil]

Hi Oleg!

Wicking did put up a good fight utilizing its advantage in mobility but lets not make it into some yet another slaughter of “Bolshevik hordes”.

My only point was that, after being decimated in the Cherkassy kessel, Wiking put up a good fight at Kovel. I'm not claiming a "slaughter of Bolshevik Hordes"--you know me better than that! I'm simply claiming that the division performed very well, considering its recent defeat.

P.S What is interesting is how many destroyed Soviet tanks/SAU other German units claimed – I assume there were other claims in addition to 107 of the Wicking.

Yes, there are higher claims, I deliberately used the lower claim, only because Igorn deliberately ignored the presence of Soviet Armor in his post.

The original post was "what do you consider the best S.S. division?" I'm only harping on Wiking because of their four years on the Ostfront and their ability to fight hard to the end. This does not reflect on the Soviet units they encountered, it reflects on the division's qualities.

I also have to say that, by 1944, given the level and sophistication of Russian anti-tank defences, anyone who consders an attack by a Panzer Division against a single entrenched Russian Infantry Division an easy thing with a foregone conclusion in favor of the Wehrmacht, is not reading history correctly.

Very Best,
David

[oleg]

My only point was that, after being decimated in the Cherkassy kessel, Wiking put up a good fight at Kovel. I'm not claiming a "slaughter of Bolshevik Hordes"--you know me better than that!

Of course I do you know better than that – I apologize if I offend you- it just some times this romanticized versions of battles can get pretty irritating. For instance that account of “single KV stopping entire 4th Panzer Army at Rossenay”. Can anyone actually imagine entire German tank Army advancing along single road??? Don’t get me started on Manshtein Kharkov counterstroke – if one to take what he wrote at face value on could think it was bigger than Kursk.

The original post was "what do you consider the best S.S. division?" I'm only harping on Wiking because of their four years on the Ostfront and their ability to fight hard to the end. This does not reflect on the Soviet units they encountered, it reflects on the division's qualities.

I am not going to debate it because –forgive me – I don’t really care which one of them was better

I also have to say that, by 1944, given the level and sophistication of Russian anti-tank defences, anyone who consders an attack by a Panzer Division against a single entrenched Russian Infantry Division an easy thing with a foregone conclusion in favor of the Wehrmacht, is not reading history correctly.

Well entrenched being the key-word. 143rd had about 5000 men at the beginning of the operation – – it had one regiment facing towards probable German relief effort and two facing towards Kovel. I would imagine by the time it actually got to meet Wicking it was smaller but not by much since losses in KIA for the second Byelorussian between February 24th And April 5th are about 5500 men – and that include loses of 61st and 70th Armies.

[Igorn]

My only point was that, after being decimated in the Cherkassy kessel, Wiking put up a good fight at Kovel. I'm not claiming a "slaughter of Bolshevik Hordes"--you know me better than that! I'm simply claiming that the division performed very well, considering its recent defeat

Let's be clear. The "Wiking"'s SS Panzer-Regiment 9 "Germania", was not in the Cherkassy pocket. That's why it couldn't be decimated. Before its commitment at Kovel it was fully reconstituted and equipped up to strength with 75 brand new Panthers.

Sources: Peter Strassner, European Volunteers and Velimir Vuksic.

Concerning you other claims I will reply to you later today when I will have more time and access to my sources.

Best Regards from Russia,

[Jan-Hendrik]

Wiking"'s SS Panzer-Regiment 9 "Germania"

Reading is not really a strong side of you , isn't it

First , Wikings PzRgt. was SS-PzRgt.5 .

Second , II.Abtl. of SS-PzRgt.5 was not in Tscherkassy due to its reorganisation to a PantherAbt. . Which means that I.Abt. of SS-PzRgt. 5 ( Chief : SS-Stubaf. Köller ) was definitly in the pocket , see Straßner , german edition , p.235 for example ...



Jan-Hendrik

[panzerschreck1]

Comm , D, the Evil wrote

David (P.S. I can't believe I'm posting on the S.S. Board It seems so "Anti-Soviet" some how.... )

Ahmm David , your whole post was anti-Soviet!
Acknowledging that Wiking (ss) destroyed 103 sovet tanks at Maciejow!
No commisar admits that!

Pack your suitcase cause Stalin is looking for a rebuff on his 'once favourite commisar'.....

[Marko]

Just for the sake of the argument, the tank battle at Maciejow was in July 1944 and as far as I understand the Soviet thrust was a prelude to the general offensive in this sector. The Wehrmachtbericht stated that German units destroyed a tank corps and several rifle divisions.