Let us never forget the Flemish young men from the Ostfront

VlaamseLeeuw · Post by **VlaamseLeeuw** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 3:06 am

Hello,
I'm new to this site, but I was very glad to see such of wide variation of info about the German army during the 40's. As I've always been interested in this stuff a new world went open for me.

I'm a 21 yrs old Belgian from Flanders. As you can guess I more or less can say that "Flanders" indeed took part in some of the German military actions. Most of these young Flemish soldiers were attracted by the heroistic publicity and political "games". In Flanders the responsible person for Nazi collaboration was Gustaaf Declerck, while in Wallonie (the French speaking part of Belgium) that was Léon Degrelle.

It can be easily said that only a few Belgian citizens were really agreeing with the Flemish men joining the Foreign Waffen SS Divisions. As in so many other countries who "delivered" men for the German SS, many citizens saw those men as traitors. However, the most of these young men saw it as the ultimate defending of the Flemish countryground against the threatening communism. They thought they would be an effective help to prevent any Russian influence on Belgium and Flanders.

A few thousand young men in total decided to join the ranks of the Waffen SS. The most famous legion (mainly occupied by Flemish Volunteers) was the so called "Division Langemarck". My grandfather was one of the young men joining this division. He and his squad were sent to the city of Leningrad to assist the residenting troops. By the end of the campaign he achieved the rank of SS Rottenführer (lance corporal) and was awarded the Eisernes Kreuz 2.Klasse for his achievements in combat operations. I was always very interested when I was a kid, and could nearly litteraly dream away by his "stories".

However, on his return there was anything but a warm welcome. Many citizens saw those "Ostfronters" as traitors. Therefor my grandfather and many of his collegues were punished by the way of imprisonment. In some way it was understandable, in the end he served with the Axis and ennemy forced indeed. But, don't forget that many of these young men were influenced by the ideology of intense friendship, the dream of heroism and the growing fear of the Communism. I don't think my grandfather was really an admirator of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi-theology, he served for the Flemish Flag and the honor of its people, rather than sitting on the schoolbenches.

I hope one day some more people will start to realise the efforts of him and so many other young Flemish men at that time. They though that what they did was good for the country and its people. It's also awful that still today, many people neglect him for once having served within Flemish Legion. As so many veterans , he and his collegues should finally be honored because of their achievements in combat. Hower, I'm somewhat afraid this will only be limited to a lost hope.

Finally I'd like to come in contact, if possible , with other people from Flanders who may have a family member who served into Flemish Waffen SS Services as well.

Furthermore, one more time, great site....I'm sure I'll visit it regularly again.

Edelweiss. · Post by **Edelweiss.** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 9:49 am

Welcome to the forum. Look around, post and enjoy!

Regards,
Edelweiss

SMoutin · Post by **SMoutin** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 10:40 am

Great, another Waffen-SS worshipper......

Prosper Vandenbroucke · Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:09 pm

Hello Vlaamseleeuw,

Don't forget that those men ( Flemish or Walloon ) fought under ennemy uniform and against allieds of their country.
Thats all.... :

Prosper

estonian · Post by **estonian** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 4:27 pm

Eastern front - is not meaning only a fighting against Russians but also protecting some nations from Russians and helping those nations do fight for his freedom. Estonian people can not say anything bad about Belgian volunteers. Conversely, they are thankful for this sacrifice, made by Belgian young men for helping Estonian people. Fighting on the Narwa and Tartu front in Estonia July – August 1944, gave time for thousands of Estonian refugees do leave a homeland and escape from red terror.

25. July 1944 kampfgruppe "Rehmann" from SS Sturmbrigade "Langemarck" came to the Narva front on Tannenberg line. After five days in this huge battle from 400 "Langemarck"-s men, came to Estonia, was 37 left. Most of the officers was killed, included commander Hauptsturmführer Rehmann. But they still continue do fight commanded by untersturmführer D´Haase. In this battle on the eastern borderline of Estonia these men fought together with 20. Waffen SS Division (Estonians), Division "Nordland" (regiments "Danmark" and "Norge"), Division "Nederland", 300. Division (Estonians) and 11.Division (Ost-Prussians). One of the biggest heroes in tease days was young Flemish Remi Schrynen. Being only member, still alive, of the antitank cannon crew, he continue do fight and destroyed number of Russian tanks. Do rescue him, tanks of "Nordland" went to the counterattack and pick him up from his completely destroyed position.

21. - 30. Aug. 44 Tartu front south of Estonia. 450 men from SS Sturmbrigade Wallonien commanded by Leon Degrelle had heavy battles on the riverline of "Emajogi". They fought also together with "Nordland", 20. Waffen SS Division, 2.Estonian Police regiment and Estonian Bordersguarding regiments from 207. Sic.Division. Finally 32 Walloniens was still on the line. For battles on Emajogi 200 of Walloniens were decorated with iron crosses. Untersturmführer Cillis was decorated with Knight Cross and Leon Degrelle with oak leaves to Knight Cross.

These hundreds of Belgians in 1944 wasn’t a tourists in Estonia. They came do help as in the worst moment for our nation. OK, we did not stop Russians and we lost our independence. But Estonians still remember those hundreds of Belgians who never leave Estonia.

Edelweiss. · Post by **Edelweiss.** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 11:34 am

Look, lets not turn this thread into a slanging match.

The first question I'd ask to those who would criticise our new member is, why do you dismiss his post as "worship" for the Waffen SS? I see him offering a favourable view of the Flanders Legion (seeing as his grandfather fought as part of it, this is quite understandable), but I don't see him "worshipping" the Waffen SS.

There is a thread on the Waffen SS in the "SS/Waffen SS" forum, post your own views there, but don't be hurling criticism here simply because a differing opinion is being expressed.

This is a German military history forum, not a place to settle personal scores.

Regards,
Edelweiss

Thomas V. · Post by **Thomas V.** » Mon Dec 08, 2003 11:02 am

Sturmbrigade "Langemarck" came to the Narva front on Tannenberg line. After five days in this huge battle from 400 "Langemarck"-s men, came to Estonia, was 37 left. Most of the officers was killed, included commander Hauptsturmführer Rehmann.

SS-Hstuf. Rehmann survived Narwa and the war alltogether, he died in 1976. He was "wounded" and left the battle area. D'Haese took over.

But they still continue do fight commanded by untersturmführer D´Haase.

His name should be D'Haese, but otherwise the posting is correct.

Untersturmführer Cillis was decorated with Knight Cross and Leon Degrelle with oak leaves to Knight Cross.

Yes, Gillis (not Cillis) had trouble finding work here when he came back. Went back to being a hand worker, just like he was before the war.

These hundreds of Belgians in 1944 wasn’t a tourists in Estonia. They came do help as in the worst moment for our nation. OK, we did not stop Russians and we lost our independence. But Estonians still remember those hundreds of Belgians who never leave Estonia.

A fitting description for which I thank you. We also have memorial stones there in Estonia, so it certainly is true that Estonia hasn't forgotten the many casualties.

Ichi · Post by **Ichi** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:46 pm

I don't think it's that strange to have people here who are interested in the Waffen SS. A lof of us want to know more about our countrymen who faught for Germany and it just so happens that most did so as members of... yes your right... The Waffen SS.

Has nothing to do with worshipping or being neo nazi's or whatever, just the way it happened. Blame history if anything...

Pirx · Post by **Pirx** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 1:39 pm

estonian wrote: Eastern front - is not meaning only a fighting against Russians but also protecting some nations from Russians and helping those nations do fight for his freedom.

Yes. What a pity that only "some" nations were protected... Other were destroyed.

herr · Post by **herr** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:30 am

Hey Vlaamse Leeuw

PM me dan kan ik je vertellen over Ustuf Bert Degruyter.
Mijn grootoom zat in het Duitse leger.

To english speaking people who might get upset :

PM me then I can tell you about BDG.
My great-uncle was present in the German army.

Flemish youngsters sacrificed life and limb, blood and tears for what they saw was right.
Many werent nazis, they wanted Flemish independance and used the nazis to get there.
Offcourse there were actual nazi suporters amongst them.
But independance would have been the prime reason.

Even today many strive for that including me.

Does that mean that I am a nazi ?
No
Does that mean that I would have joined the SS to achieve the goal of indenpendance ?
Offcourse

Everyone stood up for what they believed in and that is their god given right.

Politics even today dont allow you to think like that.
So why not use any means to get there.

Sometimes I wonder why civil unrest hasnt erupted in that ape-land.

Call me Belgian, what a joke.

Those Flemish vets will never be forgotten here.

And anyone who still see the Germans as evil and the allies as saints obviously still dont know what they are talking about.

Sorry had to let of some steam on the subject.

cheers

Herr

Laurent Daniel · Post by **Laurent Daniel** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:31 am

Hi Stephane,

SMoutin wrote:Great, another Waffen-SS worshipper......

Allow a French to disagree with another French.
Strongly.
Our new member (Welcome VlaamseLeeuw) had his grandfather in the Eastern Front. Nothing in his post shows that he his a "worshipper", he is simply trying to understand his grandfather and is coming to us for help and information.

With Prosper, I don't forget that those men fought under ennemy uniform and against allieds of their country.

But, after digging a bit into the history and motivations of the French Volunteers, and betting that the circumstances and the context were very similar for the Flemish Volunteers, I came to the conclusion that, while their mentors and recruiters can be considered as traitors and collaborationists, it it not the case of the average Volunteer.

Those young men, living in a destroyed and occupied country, stood up to "do something" for their homeland. Tough luck, they choosed the wrong camp, by chance. By chance also, some other young men joined the Resistance and choosed the right camp.

It requires a little bit of intellectual honesty and tolerance, plus a little bit of digging, to try to put yourselves back in their shoes. What was the context? What was "politically correct" at that time?

It is very easy today, behind our screen, comfortably sitting in our armchair, to "judge" and "classify". What did they knew of the reality of the Nazi regime? Almost nothing except the propaganda cliches. What was their feelings? Shame and distress further to the annihilation of their national armies and their countries. What were they trying to do in joining the W-SS? Join the winner, protect Europe from a risk they were sincerely seeing as a vicious risk, put their country back on its feet. Were they wrong? Easy, today, to say yes, but, yes, they were. Were they traitors and criminals? No.

Again, try to honestly put yourself back into the context of those terrible times. Where would you have been standing? With the tiny minorities who stood up to do something (Whatever camps) or the huge majority who simply tried to survive, to feed the kids, yelling "Vive Petain" (Or Vive Degrelle or Vive Declerck or whatever) when required and then rushing home to listen to the BBC ?

You don't know.
I don't know.
Nobody honestly knows.
We were not there.

panzermahn · Post by **panzermahn** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:09 am

A group of 40 Flemish Waffen SS veterans that were captured by the Bolsheviks in the 1944 Battle of Narva were released only in 1967 from Russian gulags!

Regards
Panzermahn

Helmut Von Moltke · Post by **Helmut Von Moltke** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:17 am

What sources for that story Panzermahn? But sounds really though, 23 years in a gulag........

Laurent Daniel · Post by **Laurent Daniel** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:21 am

Helmut Von Moltke wrote:What sources for that story Panzermahn? But sounds really though, 23 years in a gulag........

Good question.
Chancellor Adenauer obtained the release of the last German POW in Russia in... mmhh... 1955 ? Something like that. Please correct as required.
I wonder why the Belgian couldn't manage to do the same ????
But maybe the Belgian judeo-ploutocrats were accomplices of the Stalinist Bolsheviks to keep on torturing, etc, etc....

Helmut Von Moltke · Post by **Helmut Von Moltke** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:47 am

*nods approval to both herr's and Laurent's comments*

thanks, my 2 kameraden, all I want to say is said there.