Masshootings and the final solution

[max painless]

You say the German Army had thousands of defectors and this shows people standing up to the NAzi regime. However, any war machine the size of Germany's, undergoing the same stresses and constant use/casualty rates, is going to have thousands of defectors in the course of over 5 years. That does not prove anything. In addition, german letters were often censored, and even if/when honest portrayals of genocide could possibly come through to Germany itself, the society lacked the free press to distribute such information widely. Also, even if you were killing jews, do you think you want to write about it to your mom? I'm sure some would, but many would prefer not to.

[Craig Soward]

One thing that I am very curious about is that quite a few books I have read (maybe from less reliable sources, you might say) seem to imply that every concentration camp in Germany & Poland had gas chambers & cremation ovens when it was my belief that these only existed in the "known death camps" at Auschwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor, Maidenek & Chelmno (sorry if my spelling is incorrect).

I dont know whether or not this is an exageration by the writers, aimed at bringing more grief down upon the Germans or what for what purpose they make these claims.

The other thing that I find interesting is that so many "survivors"seem to exist from the death camps, especially places like Treblinka, which were supposedly 100% death camps. If the Germans were such efficient mass murderers, how did these people (especially if they happened to be Jewish) slip through the dragnet of the Gestapo & SS men, who ran these camps.

I found quite a few references to survivors from Treblinka in a book about the former concentration camp guard there, Ivan the Terrible, which led me to this query.

I would be interested to hear a few opinions from others out there; I am not a holocaust denier just curious about some things I have read & am the sort of person who is not prepared to accept everything they read or hear as the gospel truth.

Cheers

[Achilles]

I found quite a few references to survivors from Treblinka

I know what you are trying to imply but there were less than 100 survivors from Treblinka tracked down after the war. Might sound alot to you but not when you consider 800,000 people died there. A survival rate of 0.0001 percent. 99.9999 percent of people sent there died.

And the 800,000 deaths is the low estimate.

[Laurent Daniel]

Thanks Achilles

A death camp needed staff for the operation and maintenance of the killing machine (Zonderkommando) as well as of the camp itself. The story of the Auschwitz Jew dentist treating the SS guards teeth is well known. That staff was composed of prisoners selected upon arrival of the trains, everybody have seen that in at least one movie, the big SS showing the left or the right to the arriving deportees.

The few survivors had the "luck" to be selected for those works and to be from the last convoys arrival as, needless to say but let's say it, the "turnover" was high, the "staff" joining the fate of the others frequently and being replaced by fresh meat.

[Achilles]

There was of course a revolt at Treblinka in August 1943 in which up to 500 prisoners escaped. Only 52 survivors could be found after the war.

So...from a starting point of someone casting doubts on Treblinka's existence or it's true purpose we have determined that 99.9999% + (as a low estimate) of all people sent there were murdered. If you are still "the sort of person who is not prepared to accept everything they read or hear as the gospel truth" after looking at this statistic, there's no hope for you.

[Laurent Daniel]

If you are still "the sort of person who is not prepared to accept everything they read or hear as the gospel truth" after looking at this statistic, there's no hope for you.

Maybe Craig is not SO hopeless, Achilles. Roaming around the net about WW2, I often find myself involved in discussions with honest guys who, simply, are a bit de-stabilised by the denialist-negationist crap and only need to be explained few things a bit more in detail, that's all!

I even wrote a fairy tale especially for them:
What the negationists want us to believe?
By Daniel Laurent
Well, this is what they would like us to believe, their own “view” of WW2 history:

“Once upon a time, the world acclaimed humanist Adolph Hitler was willingly and freely brought to power in Germany by the mass of the German people. The electoral campaign that went on freely was a great success for his democratic and peaceful political militants the SA.
He immediately embarked in his mission, i.e. getting back into the German Reich the poor oppressed German people starving in surrounding places colonized by foreigners. He managed peacefully to get back the Sarr province from the French, Austria out of the free will of the Austrian people, the Sudettenland in spite of the Tcheqs oppressors at no life cost.
He then gently and mildly suggested to the Poles to give back to Germany the long overdue occupied corridor of Danzig. The Poles warmongers reacted by aggressing the glorious Wehrmacht and attacked by surprised along the border. The glorious Wehrmacht reacted in self-defense and managed to liberate Danzig from Polish occupation. The Bolsheviks took advantage of the situation to invade eastern Poland where they committed the massacres today blamed on the peace angel Hitler.
The peace loving 3rd Reich could not do anything as they had sign a peace treaty with the Soviets and, as everybody knows, Hitler never ever denied his signature, especially on a peace treaty.
Meanwhile, the French and British warmongers unilaterally declared war to the 3rd Reich, in spite of Adolph Hitler, peace be upon him, desperate attempts to avoid it.
The glorious Wehrmacht defeated the French but spared the UK of an easy invasion as Adolph Hitler refused to crush them, in his eternal and sincere struggle for peace.
He even went to the supreme sacrifice, personally sending his heir, Rudolf Hess, to England with a just, fair and humanitarian peace offer. The criminal warmonger Churchill rejected that genuine and just offer, locked Rudolf Hess in jail, managed him to be full of drugs during the Nuremberg trial so that he couldn't tell the truth to the world. Eventually, the blood thirsty British assassinated Rudolf Hess in 1987 when it became clear that he had to be liberated and, consequently, could speak the truth.
The nasty Bolsheviks took advantage of those difficulties to harass the glorious Wehrmacht along the eastern border and to deny all the clauses of the signed peace treaty.
Moreover, Adolph Hitler, in his quest for a true National-Socialism in Germany, realized that his main obstacle, i.e. the Capitalist abusers, where composed mainly of Jews, the same Jews that were now heavily supporting the Bolsheviks with all their stolen financial might.
In his infinite wisdom, Adolph Hitler, peace be upon him, took 2 decisions intended to salvage the poor German people:
1 - Separate the Jews from the Germanic.
So, the brotherly humanitarian SS started to gently assemble the Jews and send them to summer vacation camps in Poland and other eastern territories, where they could freely care for themselves in a healthy environment. The intention was only to prevent the Jews to harass the Germanic people with their hatred propaganda and abusive
exploitation. He took advantage of this to also send there some Germans such as the communists, tzigans, disabled and other dangerous asocial elements who were threatening peace and social stability.
2 - Prepare his supreme mission, i.e. eradicate the evil of Bolshevism. That was a just cause, as demonstrated by the cold war that has done nothing more than following Adolph Hitler path, peace be upon him.
Unfortunately, the warmonger Roosevelt was there. He was dreaming since day one to go to war, but the wise USA Congress and people were refusing. So, while negotiating with the peaceful Japanese about the regular abuses perpetrated by the USA against Japan, he took such a tough stand that the Japanese were pushed out of their limit and committed a small diplomatic mistake. They planned to set-up a mock-up attack against Pearl Harbor, with no real damages, only to show how serious and distressed they were.
They send their naval fleet but managed Roosevelt to be informed a long time before. The idea was to get Roosevelt accepting a bit softer stand, stop the fleet and be back to the negotiation table.
But the criminal warmonger Roosevelt kept the information secret to the great despair of the peace lover Japanese top brass who waited to the last minutes and couldn’t stop their fleet and planes and you all know what happened.
So the USA get embarked in an un-justified war against Japan and Germany, the criminal warmonger Roosevelt providing the Bolshevist enemy as well as the criminal warmonger Churchill with weapons and ammunitions.
He even sent a lot of war planes to the UK and, with the help of the RAF
of the criminal Churchill, bombed so heavily the poor peaceful German people that they created within Germany a heavy starvation and infectious disease spreading situation.
The main victims, beside the German people, were the hosts of the Reich in the East, i.e. the Jews, Tzigans, Russian POW, etc. in the summer vacation camps. Less strong and less motivated than the Aryan people, they couldn't cope and died by thousands because of the USA and UK crimes. The so-called gas chambers, invented by the Jews after the war in order to extract as much "compensation" money as possible, were in fact disinfecting chambers where the gentle humanitarian SS were desperately trying to get rid of the vermin infesting the clothes of their distinguished hosts".
(To be completed and finalized with Eastern front, end of the war, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the “hopes” and agenda of the negationists)

[Opa]

Laurent,

Il y a beaucoup de vrai dans ton texte! In any case, both sides share enough guilt to end that self-righteous pissing on Germans.

[Laurent Daniel]

Laurent,

Il y a beaucoup de vrai dans ton texte! In any case, both sides share enough guilt to end that self-righteous pissing on Germans.

Sorry, Opa, but it is not necessary to analyse the possible guilt of the Allies to stop the "self-righteous pissing on Germans".

It is simply by looking at WHO were the culprits: The Nazis, originating from Germany, but with help of accomplices from many other European countries, including France by the way.

So, let's keep on the self-righteous pissing on Nazis of all nationalities and let's have a bit of compassion for our European brothers the Germans whose land had the tough luck to host the original nest of the pest.

[Craig Soward]

Some interesting replies I must say..so there is no hope for me then Achilles? Sorry I asked a question! When did I question the actual existence of Treblinka (I just said there seemed to be alot of survivors, that was all, from a book that I had read). Being willing & able to seek out different sources & to use them to find out different versions of events (while not just accepting everything you hear & read as the gospel truth) does not mean that "there is no hope" left for someone..come down out of your ivory tower Achilles.

As for your self indulgent "rant" Daniel Laurent, I actually found it very pretentious & self righteous; I am not some naive 10 year old kid but a avid reader & follower of history, especially as it relates to the Third Reich (in particular the WAFFEN SS).

Some of you guys should get back to reality & realise that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, we dont live in a dictatorship! Having an open mind does mean that you dont get "brainwashed" by either side of the argument; you hear both sides of the story then come to your own conclusions.

[Laurent Daniel]

As for your self indulgent "rant" Daniel Laurent, I actually found it very pretentious & self righteous; I am not some naive 10 year old kid but a avid reader & follower of history, especially as it relates to the Third Reich (in particular the WAFFEN SS).

Sorry, many people, in other forums and NG, do not share your opinion about my "fairy tale". Not the first time I post it. It is neither pretentious nor self righteous. It is simply what the denialists would like us to believe.
If you do not get it right, well, your problem. Moreover, no problem for me to be unpolitely agressed by people like you. I love to be agressed by denialists caught red handed. Most welcome.

Some of you guys should get back to reality & realise that everyone is entitled to their own opinion

Which opinion? We aren't in a political forum here, but in an historical forum. So, there are the historical facts, on one side, and the falsifications generated by the denialists, on the other side. No choice left for you: One or the other, period. Up to you. No room for "opinions".

we dont live in a dictatorship! Having an open mind does mean that you dont get "brainwashed" by either side of the argument; you hear both sides of the story then come to your own conclusions

An "open mind" that tries to be astonished about the "numerous survivors in Treblinka" deserves to be considered as slightly one sided. What would you like to demonstrate here?
You asked questions.
You got replies.
Conclusions?
May we know?

[Opa]

The co-responsability of Stalin in the events leading to the war is well-established, among else. So let's distribute the blame a bit more "tout azimuts."

[Craig Soward]

Sorry for "having an opinion", I will leave you in peace, so you can play at being "the big historians" & share your wonderful "pools of knowledge" with each other!

PS; People once believed the earth was flat, because that was what everyone else said or they were told! A lesson for you there, I think...

[Achilles]

Some interesting replies I must say..so there is no hope for me then Achilles? Sorry I asked a question! When did I question the actual existence of Treblinka (I just said there seemed to be alot of survivors, that was all, from a book that I had read). Being willing & able to seek out different sources & to use them to find out different versions of events (while not just accepting everything you hear & read as the gospel truth) does not mean that "there is no hope" left for someone..come down out of your ivory tower Achilles.

As for your self indulgent "rant" Daniel Laurent, I actually found it very pretentious & self righteous; I am not some naive 10 year old kid but a avid reader & follower of history, especially as it relates to the Third Reich (in particular the WAFFEN SS).

Some of you guys should get back to reality & realise that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, we dont live in a dictatorship! Having an open mind does mean that you dont get "brainwashed" by either side of the argument; you hear both sides of the story then come to your own conclusions.

Hear both sides of the story?

You'd heard there were survivors from Treblinka but immediately took the stance that was something 'up' with there being survivors from a death camp.

Did you check how many survivors there were? Did you check how many peole died there? Both figures are freely available on the internet.

Do you think that a 99.9999% death rate still casts doubts on the existence of Treblinka and its's real role?

You definitely are the "sort of person who is not prepared to accept everything they read or hear as the gospel truth". You don't want to believe the statistics so you cast around wondering if there were survivors perhpas TRablinka didn't exist. The survivors were lying. The death camps didn't exist. It's all a lie etc etc etc

There's no ivory tower. Just the ability to accept what happened and WHO was to blame. It wasn't Stalin and the Russians. It was Hitler and the Germans. Like it or not.

Instead of desperately fishing around for a shred of evidence that proves what your heart really wants to find. But your head and all the evidence says otherwise. Accept it.

[Achilles]

Sorry for "having an opinion", I will leave you in peace, so you can play at being "the big historians" & share your wonderful "pools of knowledge" with each other!

PS; People once believed the earth was flat, because that was what everyone else said or they were told! A lesson for you there, I think...

So you are still denying 99.9999% of those sent to Treblinka died? There's no 'opinion', 'big historians', 'pools of knowledge'. The facts are there...if you doubt them then yes, you are a holocaust denier.

Lets see some evidence that the holocaust didn't happen...and it had better be more conclusive than "there were survivors from Trebilnka" crap you've come up with so far.

[Achilles]

The co-responsability of Stalin in the events leading to the war is well-established, among else. So let's distribute the blame a bit more "tout azimuts."

This is a new one. Stalin is equally responsible for Hitler and the Nazis actions? Nice one.