Hi TYR,
Yup. I did ask "when did all the SS get branded as criminals"?
I still haven't received an answer.
Nuremberg clearly stated that Waffen-SS membership was not of itself criminal. Waffen-SS men, like any others, had to be charged with a specific crime. Are you disputing this?
Nuremberg also stated that the Waffen-SS was a criminal organisation. This was because its institutional ethos was such that a disproportionate number of its men were accused of war crimes.
How do we know that the Waffen-SS as an institution was dispropotionately involved in war crimes? Because the far bigger German Army, operating under identical conditions, was far less involved in war crimes. In other words, the Waffen-SS as an institution, stands condemned by the better behaviour of another institution - the German Army.
Of course, most Waffen-SS men probably never even killed someone in battle, let alone in a war crime. However, the fact remains that the Waffen-SS, operating outside the military justice system from the autumn of 1939, was institutionally flawed and was far more likely to corrupt its members into committing war crimes than the conventional, apolitical branches of the Wehrmacht - the Heer, the Kriegsmarine and the Luftwaffe.
The Nuremberg distinction between the culpability of the Waffen-SS as an institution and the lack of culbability of its individual members without specific charge seems eminently sensible because it recognises the facts: the Waffen-SS was disproportionately likely to commit war crimes, but most of its members were entirely innocent.
Cheers,
Sid.
war crimes
Hello Sid,thanks for your reply.
I still have a problem though with the WSS being a "criminal"organization
but the members are not criminal.
Let me give an analogy.If the Mafia is a criminal organization,then the members of that organization must be criminals.How can it be any other way?
So,while some of the hierarchy of the WSS,Himmler,Eicke,Heydrich,Bach
Zelewski, and others were criminals,I still cannot tar the whole of the WSS as being criminal.Many units did not commit atrocities and fought a vicious cruel enemy with steadfastness,courage and elan.
Does that make sense?Or maybe we are just splitting a hair?
Good points on your part.
Best Wishes
TYR-
I still have a problem though with the WSS being a "criminal"organization
but the members are not criminal.
Let me give an analogy.If the Mafia is a criminal organization,then the members of that organization must be criminals.How can it be any other way?
So,while some of the hierarchy of the WSS,Himmler,Eicke,Heydrich,Bach
Zelewski, and others were criminals,I still cannot tar the whole of the WSS as being criminal.Many units did not commit atrocities and fought a vicious cruel enemy with steadfastness,courage and elan.
Does that make sense?Or maybe we are just splitting a hair?
Good points on your part.
Best Wishes
TYR-
STRENGTH & HONOR
-
Craig Soward
- Supporter
- Posts: 87
- Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2004 8:10 pm
- Location: Tasmania, Australia
-
sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi TYR,
The Mafia and the Waffen-SS are not diectly comparable. The Mafia is not a card carrying organisation with a public membership list and its membership is entirely voluntary.
But. leaving that aside, surely, while the Mafia may be a criminal organisation, its members have to be tried for specific crimes, just like individual members of the Waffen-SS? Supposed membership of the Mafia is not of itself a crime. Mafiosi have to be done for extortion, murder, etc.
Displaying steadfastness, courage and elan is irrelevant, because they are qulities that tell one nothing about the criminality or otherwise of an individual or a unit. For example, the Oradour massacre was committed by a W-SS unit that both before and after the event displayed some or all of these attributes.
So, the enemy was vicious and cruel? Well, don't enter his country as a vicious and cruel invader, then you won't have to face his vicious and cruel response.
Cheers,
Sid..
The Mafia and the Waffen-SS are not diectly comparable. The Mafia is not a card carrying organisation with a public membership list and its membership is entirely voluntary.
But. leaving that aside, surely, while the Mafia may be a criminal organisation, its members have to be tried for specific crimes, just like individual members of the Waffen-SS? Supposed membership of the Mafia is not of itself a crime. Mafiosi have to be done for extortion, murder, etc.
Displaying steadfastness, courage and elan is irrelevant, because they are qulities that tell one nothing about the criminality or otherwise of an individual or a unit. For example, the Oradour massacre was committed by a W-SS unit that both before and after the event displayed some or all of these attributes.
So, the enemy was vicious and cruel? Well, don't enter his country as a vicious and cruel invader, then you won't have to face his vicious and cruel response.
Cheers,
Sid..
Hi:
In Sid's answer to TYR he said -
"The Nuremberg distinction between the culpability of the Waffen-SS as an institution and the lack of culpability of its individual members without specific charge seems eminently sensible because it recognizes the facts: the Waffen-SS was disproportional likely to commit war crimes, but most of its members were entirely innocent."
He also said -
"Nuremburg clearly stated that Waffen SS membership was not of itself criminal. Waffen SS men, like any others, had to be charged with a specific crime. Are you disputing this? "
It sounds straight forward but the reality is very different. At this time, 60 + years after the war we are still being accused of things we did not do or even know about. Presently there are dozens of old men who's only crime was to do as was expected of their generation and managed to survive. Men of low rank, privates who had the misfortune to serve for the wrong side. The fact that we all were interrogated by the Allies and later the German government and this is after most of us spent many Month or years in POW camps did not seem to matter.
So why this witch hunt ? I heard of a guy, now 81 years old, 17 when joining up in 1942 and thoroughly investigated by Germany with no crimes attributed to him. After 50 odd years of exemplary life over here, on a pretext his citizenship was revoked and he faces deportation. I wonder what ever happened to the concept - innocent till proven guilty ?
I guess the actual reality is - we were victimized by a vicious regime we supported because we had to, besides there was no other choice. Then victimized and blamed again at wars end by the victorious Allies who at times treated us equally as vicious as we were accused off. Don't bother to mention the Holocaust, Malmedy, Concentration Camps, most of us and I only heard about it at wars end. The ones responsible for it received the Victors Justice and have long gone.
This witch hunt has been going on for years and as we see even the new Pope is not immune from it, but unlike the guy I mentioned he has a much more support. What is going to happen in a few years when we are gone ? are our children and grand children held responsible for the ever increasing war crimes ?
Most likely, as evidenced on this Forum. There are many here spouting the constant exaggerations and accusations, some because of blind bias and some with never ending vindictivness.
Gerhard
In Sid's answer to TYR he said -
"The Nuremberg distinction between the culpability of the Waffen-SS as an institution and the lack of culpability of its individual members without specific charge seems eminently sensible because it recognizes the facts: the Waffen-SS was disproportional likely to commit war crimes, but most of its members were entirely innocent."
He also said -
"Nuremburg clearly stated that Waffen SS membership was not of itself criminal. Waffen SS men, like any others, had to be charged with a specific crime. Are you disputing this? "
It sounds straight forward but the reality is very different. At this time, 60 + years after the war we are still being accused of things we did not do or even know about. Presently there are dozens of old men who's only crime was to do as was expected of their generation and managed to survive. Men of low rank, privates who had the misfortune to serve for the wrong side. The fact that we all were interrogated by the Allies and later the German government and this is after most of us spent many Month or years in POW camps did not seem to matter.
So why this witch hunt ? I heard of a guy, now 81 years old, 17 when joining up in 1942 and thoroughly investigated by Germany with no crimes attributed to him. After 50 odd years of exemplary life over here, on a pretext his citizenship was revoked and he faces deportation. I wonder what ever happened to the concept - innocent till proven guilty ?
I guess the actual reality is - we were victimized by a vicious regime we supported because we had to, besides there was no other choice. Then victimized and blamed again at wars end by the victorious Allies who at times treated us equally as vicious as we were accused off. Don't bother to mention the Holocaust, Malmedy, Concentration Camps, most of us and I only heard about it at wars end. The ones responsible for it received the Victors Justice and have long gone.
This witch hunt has been going on for years and as we see even the new Pope is not immune from it, but unlike the guy I mentioned he has a much more support. What is going to happen in a few years when we are gone ? are our children and grand children held responsible for the ever increasing war crimes ?
Most likely, as evidenced on this Forum. There are many here spouting the constant exaggerations and accusations, some because of blind bias and some with never ending vindictivness.
Gerhard
-
sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Gerhard,
Could you give us some examples of the "constant exaggerations and accusations" against the Waffen-SS you say are here on Feldgrau?
My impression is that while this charge is sometimes repeated, there is seldom any evidence for it.
On the contrary, I would suggest that this forum's bias, if any, is the other way. It has a special section for the Waffen-SS that attracts far more attention than the limited military significance of the Waffen-SS merits. But where is the section for the Heer, which gained all Germany's victories?
Cheers,
Sid.
Could you give us some examples of the "constant exaggerations and accusations" against the Waffen-SS you say are here on Feldgrau?
My impression is that while this charge is sometimes repeated, there is seldom any evidence for it.
On the contrary, I would suggest that this forum's bias, if any, is the other way. It has a special section for the Waffen-SS that attracts far more attention than the limited military significance of the Waffen-SS merits. But where is the section for the Heer, which gained all Germany's victories?
Cheers,
Sid.
Hi Gerhard
I think you'll find that after you're gone that there will still be many of us who honor soldiers as soldiers.
I know you don't appreciate those KZ guys any more than I do - but meriterious service in the defense of one's country will be remembered and the Waffen SS made quite a name for itself on numerous battlefields.
In my church we sent a young fellow off to the marines recently. Some of us support the war, some of us don't. All of us supported that marine. Sadly, he recently returned home minus a leg. Should this more go wrong as VN did have no fear - those of us who honor soldiers (and a lot of that group have been soldiers themselves) will continue to honor the men who fought.
Soldiers do not make policy. They are sent off in the service of their country at a very young age and their sacrifices are often forgotten soon after.
But there a significant minority of men who remember. Some of us consider that a duty as well as a mere hobby.
The problem you and your comrades face is unique of course - wearing a uniform similar to that worn by a a very bad bunch and living in a world of sound bites rather than serious thought can be a problem.
But so what? Other than specific social services denied - should we really care about those who think with just a small part of their brain? I servied in Rhodesia - a war that was not popular in the US I can tell you. Most Americans don't even know that there were American volunteers in uniform there and couldn't tell you what actually happened. But where soldiers and historians meet - the record of the Rhodesian Army - finist counter insurgency force in the world - lives on.
And so will the memory of the Waffen SS. It is significant that many of your former enemies (Brit and American) are the ones who ensured that would happen.
Cheers and best to you
Reb
I think you'll find that after you're gone that there will still be many of us who honor soldiers as soldiers.
I know you don't appreciate those KZ guys any more than I do - but meriterious service in the defense of one's country will be remembered and the Waffen SS made quite a name for itself on numerous battlefields.
In my church we sent a young fellow off to the marines recently. Some of us support the war, some of us don't. All of us supported that marine. Sadly, he recently returned home minus a leg. Should this more go wrong as VN did have no fear - those of us who honor soldiers (and a lot of that group have been soldiers themselves) will continue to honor the men who fought.
Soldiers do not make policy. They are sent off in the service of their country at a very young age and their sacrifices are often forgotten soon after.
But there a significant minority of men who remember. Some of us consider that a duty as well as a mere hobby.
The problem you and your comrades face is unique of course - wearing a uniform similar to that worn by a a very bad bunch and living in a world of sound bites rather than serious thought can be a problem.
But so what? Other than specific social services denied - should we really care about those who think with just a small part of their brain? I servied in Rhodesia - a war that was not popular in the US I can tell you. Most Americans don't even know that there were American volunteers in uniform there and couldn't tell you what actually happened. But where soldiers and historians meet - the record of the Rhodesian Army - finist counter insurgency force in the world - lives on.
And so will the memory of the Waffen SS. It is significant that many of your former enemies (Brit and American) are the ones who ensured that would happen.
Cheers and best to you
Reb
-
sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Reb,
Nobody deserves honor merely for having been a soldier. It is how one comports oneself, be it as a soldier or a civilian, that earns one honour.
Most Waffen-SS men appear to have done nothing notably honourable, nor dishonourable. Gerhard appears to be one of these.
However, a number of Waffen-SS men did things that were so dishonourable that they criiminalised themselves. This number was disproportionally high compared to conventional military institutions, leading to the Waffen-SS being condemned as a criminal institution, because it systematically provided a permissive environment for their criminal activities.
Cheers,
Sid.
Nobody deserves honor merely for having been a soldier. It is how one comports oneself, be it as a soldier or a civilian, that earns one honour.
Most Waffen-SS men appear to have done nothing notably honourable, nor dishonourable. Gerhard appears to be one of these.
However, a number of Waffen-SS men did things that were so dishonourable that they criiminalised themselves. This number was disproportionally high compared to conventional military institutions, leading to the Waffen-SS being condemned as a criminal institution, because it systematically provided a permissive environment for their criminal activities.
Cheers,
Sid.
Sid
I disagree emphatically. The Waffen SS put up a magnificent fight for their country.
The atrocities and excesses you speak of were routine when the Russians come calling but I never hear you complain about that.
For the most part, indeed way the most part, the W-SS gave us an honorable run for our money.
I know the mere existance of the W-SS is a point of contention with you and I have no dog in that hunt - to me, they did exist and complaining about it seems silly. Their record justifies their existance.
cheers
Reb
I disagree emphatically. The Waffen SS put up a magnificent fight for their country.
The atrocities and excesses you speak of were routine when the Russians come calling but I never hear you complain about that.
For the most part, indeed way the most part, the W-SS gave us an honorable run for our money.
I know the mere existance of the W-SS is a point of contention with you and I have no dog in that hunt - to me, they did exist and complaining about it seems silly. Their record justifies their existance.
cheers
Reb
Recently read a German Divisional history and the last paragraph was the most interesting. It as written immediatelly after the war. It read something like this: "We did our duty and we did it honorably. Having lost we are about to be judged. We only ask to be judged by our peers. However I fear we will be judged by politicians. ....... " Just about sums it up. I paraphrased as I don't have the thing in front of me, but that was the gist of it. I would add, "and others who weren't there".
- Hans
- Hans
Was haben wir für dich gewollt
Du deutsches Vaterland?
- H Gehr IR 21./17.ID
Du deutsches Vaterland?
- H Gehr IR 21./17.ID
Hi Reb, Hans
Thanks for your kind words but I would like to point out we have no need to be honored, it would be nice if we were simply remembered as soldiers.
All I am ever trying to say we did what was expected of us. Our duty. Like I mentioned in my post, the Allies and later our own people too blamed and vilified us for doing so. I and all the guy's I knew certainly do not like to be mentioned in the same thread as Dirlewanger, Einsatz Gruppen and some of the hot heads you can find in other army's too.
Sid,
I quoted the two sentences from your post because you have mentioned the very same words several times already.
After I have experienced and seen the exact opposite I am getting tired of your biased arguments.
You ask for "constant exaggerations and accusations" against the Waffen-SS you say are here on Feldgrau? "
Well I remember a time when Pipers bunch was called "Arson Battalion" because of their vehicle insignia.
On a personal level here what a guy asked me:
"Why dont you tell us Gerhard how many undesirables you disposed off? hmm? share with us the glorious past of the Aryan warrior? You keep claiming about this honor of the SS outfit you belonged to, what exactly was so honorable about it, surpassing the quota in filling massgraves with civilians you butchered? or using up the most cyclon B? or perhaps shitting your pants while running from the Soviets?"
Another one:
"Apart from Oradour, you have Le Paradis in 1940 and, of course, Malmedy in 1944. All major war atrocities commited by the Waffen-SS "finest" towards western allies soldiers!"
Those are three I remember, is that enough for you ?
I am sure you will find a hundred way's to explain those three ' you usually do.
Here is a little tit - bit for you. A guy from Holland I have been e-mailing with asking questions about our stay in Holland said this -
"btw, the man who contacted me, the son of this lady- he is still farming at the same place where his parents lived- told a story that his father was approached by a SS- officer, who asked permission to fell a big tree, so the meillerwagen could take the turn more easily. He was amazed about the politeness. I told him this was usually the case with the SS500, who were there to shoot rockets and not to oppress people."
You will likely say this was the exception but you would be wrong. That is how my comrades, first with the 2nd Division and later with the Nordhausen Division conducted ourselves.
I hope I have not lost my credibility with you - again.
Cheers,
Gerhard
Thanks for your kind words but I would like to point out we have no need to be honored, it would be nice if we were simply remembered as soldiers.
All I am ever trying to say we did what was expected of us. Our duty. Like I mentioned in my post, the Allies and later our own people too blamed and vilified us for doing so. I and all the guy's I knew certainly do not like to be mentioned in the same thread as Dirlewanger, Einsatz Gruppen and some of the hot heads you can find in other army's too.
Sid,
I quoted the two sentences from your post because you have mentioned the very same words several times already.
After I have experienced and seen the exact opposite I am getting tired of your biased arguments.
You ask for "constant exaggerations and accusations" against the Waffen-SS you say are here on Feldgrau? "
Well I remember a time when Pipers bunch was called "Arson Battalion" because of their vehicle insignia.
On a personal level here what a guy asked me:
"Why dont you tell us Gerhard how many undesirables you disposed off? hmm? share with us the glorious past of the Aryan warrior? You keep claiming about this honor of the SS outfit you belonged to, what exactly was so honorable about it, surpassing the quota in filling massgraves with civilians you butchered? or using up the most cyclon B? or perhaps shitting your pants while running from the Soviets?"
Another one:
"Apart from Oradour, you have Le Paradis in 1940 and, of course, Malmedy in 1944. All major war atrocities commited by the Waffen-SS "finest" towards western allies soldiers!"
Those are three I remember, is that enough for you ?
I am sure you will find a hundred way's to explain those three ' you usually do.
Here is a little tit - bit for you. A guy from Holland I have been e-mailing with asking questions about our stay in Holland said this -
"btw, the man who contacted me, the son of this lady- he is still farming at the same place where his parents lived- told a story that his father was approached by a SS- officer, who asked permission to fell a big tree, so the meillerwagen could take the turn more easily. He was amazed about the politeness. I told him this was usually the case with the SS500, who were there to shoot rockets and not to oppress people."
You will likely say this was the exception but you would be wrong. That is how my comrades, first with the 2nd Division and later with the Nordhausen Division conducted ourselves.
I hope I have not lost my credibility with you - again.
Cheers,
Gerhard
Hi Gerhard
All these subjects are just words on paper to me, just an interest, a hobby. I appreciate very much that I can come on Feldgrau and sometimes exchange comments with people for whom it was once a lot more, and to read their posts. Thank you very much for the time you spend on this site.
Best wishes
Regards
Jake
All these subjects are just words on paper to me, just an interest, a hobby. I appreciate very much that I can come on Feldgrau and sometimes exchange comments with people for whom it was once a lot more, and to read their posts. Thank you very much for the time you spend on this site.
Best wishes
Regards
Jake
-
sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Reb,
The Waffen-SS put up no more a magnificent fight for their country than did the German Army.
Besides, so what? Putting up a magnificent fight and being criminal are not mutually exclusive.
This is a thread on the Waffen-SS on a section on the Waffen-SS on a forum entitled Feldgrau. Why should I or anyone else necessarily raise the issue of Russian atrocities here?
Actually, I can answer that: The issue of Russian atrocities is usually called upon by posters wishing to divert attention from the unanwerable charge of insitutional criminality against the Waffen-SS. It is a diversion tactic that does not in any way detract from the charges against the Waffen-SS.
It is also worth pointing out that for three years the Eastern Front stood exclusively on Soviet soil and that German atrocities began there right at the beginning of this period, not during the last year when the Red Army finally reached German soil.
Nobody is complaining about the Waffen-SS's existence. That would be futile as it is an established historical fact. What I object to is the fantasy that the Waffen-SS was in some way militarily distinctive and merits separate attention from the German Army because of it. This is pure fiction.
The only reason why the Waffen-SS existed as an independent military instituition at all was political. As this is an avowedly non-political forum, I would suggest that there technically shouldn't be a separate Waffen-SS section on Feldgrau at all, given that it made no distinctive military contribution. The Waffen-SS did nothing the Army didn't do.
However, the Waffen-SS as an institution did display a propensity for criminality on a level not shared by the Army. Thus I would add its institutional criminality to its related political raison d'etre as the two reasons for its distinction from the Army. Militarily it was just a clone of the Army using selected manpower from the army's manpower pool, army equipment and army tactics.
Cheers,
Sid.
The Waffen-SS put up no more a magnificent fight for their country than did the German Army.
Besides, so what? Putting up a magnificent fight and being criminal are not mutually exclusive.
This is a thread on the Waffen-SS on a section on the Waffen-SS on a forum entitled Feldgrau. Why should I or anyone else necessarily raise the issue of Russian atrocities here?
Actually, I can answer that: The issue of Russian atrocities is usually called upon by posters wishing to divert attention from the unanwerable charge of insitutional criminality against the Waffen-SS. It is a diversion tactic that does not in any way detract from the charges against the Waffen-SS.
It is also worth pointing out that for three years the Eastern Front stood exclusively on Soviet soil and that German atrocities began there right at the beginning of this period, not during the last year when the Red Army finally reached German soil.
Nobody is complaining about the Waffen-SS's existence. That would be futile as it is an established historical fact. What I object to is the fantasy that the Waffen-SS was in some way militarily distinctive and merits separate attention from the German Army because of it. This is pure fiction.
The only reason why the Waffen-SS existed as an independent military instituition at all was political. As this is an avowedly non-political forum, I would suggest that there technically shouldn't be a separate Waffen-SS section on Feldgrau at all, given that it made no distinctive military contribution. The Waffen-SS did nothing the Army didn't do.
However, the Waffen-SS as an institution did display a propensity for criminality on a level not shared by the Army. Thus I would add its institutional criminality to its related political raison d'etre as the two reasons for its distinction from the Army. Militarily it was just a clone of the Army using selected manpower from the army's manpower pool, army equipment and army tactics.
Cheers,
Sid.
-
sid guttridge
- on "time out"
- Posts: 8055
- Joined: Thu Oct 10, 2002 4:54 am
Hi Hans,
Happily that didn't happen to the German Army, which was the more honourable end of the German ground forces.
"Being there" is not necessarily an advantage in making broader historical assessments. The average soldier is like the proverbial mushroom - Kept in the dark and fed on @#%. He cannot see the wood for the trees. His value lies in his own personal experience. His opinion on what went on outside his personal experience is derived from secondary sources, just like "others who weren't there".
Could you give me details of the divisional history in question? I would like to check it out.
Cheers,
Sid.
Happily that didn't happen to the German Army, which was the more honourable end of the German ground forces.
"Being there" is not necessarily an advantage in making broader historical assessments. The average soldier is like the proverbial mushroom - Kept in the dark and fed on @#%. He cannot see the wood for the trees. His value lies in his own personal experience. His opinion on what went on outside his personal experience is derived from secondary sources, just like "others who weren't there".
Could you give me details of the divisional history in question? I would like to check it out.
Cheers,
Sid.