Germans to re-investigate the massacre at Maillé

Objective research on factual information regarding German military related warcrimes.
phylo_roadking
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Re: Germans to re-investigate the massacre at Maillé

Post by phylo_roadking »

And MY point is that this
"The fact is that most German troops who encountered French partisans didn’t kick down the nearest Farmhouse door and start murdering innocent women and children in such an horrific fashion simply because some of their buddies had been killed."
must be read in conjunction with
it was a reprisal for partisan or terrorist activity in which German military personnel were killed and wounded. As well as the firefight between the maquisards and the group with which Schleuter went to the farm to requisition supplies, there were reports of an SS officer and his driver being murdered by terrorists in the area
and
Leutnant Schleuter, who was involved in the firefight with the FTP, asked his superiors in Tours for orders and was told to attack Maillé.

Whether or nor he was just meant to enter the village and search for partisans remains open to question. It seems unlikely that his superiors intended a massacre, given the embarrassment over the excessive nature of the reprisals in Oradour-sur-Glane a month and a half before. The commander of the unit responsible for Oradour had been facing a court martial, which was only averted when he met a convenient death in action in Normandy, allegedly assisted by a couple of brother officers who are said to have held him up to take an enemy bullet. Whatever the case, Lt Schleuter attacked Maillé with infantry and artillery, killing more than a third of the inhabitants, and notes were left on bodies stating "This is punishment for terrorists and their accomplices.".
Notably - Paddy's account was fuller than the ...pared-down...Fleet Street version.

What we DON'T have is normal German activity in degree OR in context. What we DO have is a situation where something entirely regrettable MAY have happened because of a misunderstanding in what the officer in charge was told. We don't even know HE telephoned Tours...or that whoever may have done so on his orders actually spoke to Schleuter's OC ...and whether or not whoever was on the other end of the phone in Tours was passing down instructions second-hand...

Remember..."send three-and-fourpence, I'm going to a dance"? :shock:

This event was 63 years ago; as the journalist says, only the charge of Murder now remains for any judicial enquiry. Does a possible mistake in communications warrant 85-90 year old vets being charged with murder?...

...because THIS is the aspect that the Hostage Case muddies; "I was only obeying orders" may now have been legally judged NOT to be a suitable defence...in most other crimes EXCEPT MURDER. BUT the Hostage case ALSO enshrined in law at the time that reprisal killings were NOT illegal...just the degree that reprisal shootings were taken to was what was at question.

And if the "crime" was one of degree, not "motive" - then it's NOT murder...and as all other statutes applicable have lapsed with time, there shouldn't be a judicial investigation. A fact-finding investigation, yes by all means - there should be NO blank areas after 63+ years - but the Hostage Case means a "murder" investigation isn't appropriate. And the investigation is too late for anything else.
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Re: Germans to re-investigate the massacre at Maillé

Post by Cott Tiger »

Phylo,

I agree that a “murder investigation” would be extremely difficult to conduct now and that the possibility of bringing individual charges and convictions is very remote.

However, that fact, and the issue of cost, shouldn’t mean that an investigation into the massacre should be prevented. The survivors and the relatives of the victims deserve to know the full facts of what happened. It is also important for the historical record.

I would also challenge your questioning of the killings as murders. Randomly ripping infant children from their mothers arms and then killing them, or slitting the throats of teenagers in front of their horrified families, cannot be classed as anything other than murder. I don’t think any court in Europe would dispute that. Whether the killings were a result of a direct order, a “communications misunderstanding” as you put it (whatever that is) or simply the blood-lust of some disgruntled rogue and ill-disciplined unit, those innocent people were murdered.

As you yourself have remarked and as I have repeatedly stated, Maillé wasn’t some “legal” hostage taking as a reprisal for Partisan inflicted casualties. It was premeditated mass-murder, and it is important that the truth be know as to who conducted the killings and who was responsible.

Regards,

André
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Re: Germans to re-investigate the massacre at Maillé

Post by phylo_roadking »

However, that fact, and the issue of cost, shouldn’t mean that an investigation into the massacre should be prevented. The survivors and the relatives of the victims deserve to know the full facts of what happened. It is also important for the historical record.
Yes.
I would also challenge your questioning of the killings as murders. Randomly ripping infant children from their mothers arms and then killing them, or slitting the throats of teenagers in front of their horrified families, cannot be classed as anything other than murder.
This is the awkward bit. Like it or not - the law ISN'T that clear. That's the problem with the Hostage Case; it "legitimised" reprisal killings as the law stood at the time. The circumstances are moot.

That's why the rules of this Section of the forum preclude opinion posts - because LEGAL opinions are quite clear - or not, as the case may be. We may not LIKE them - but they're there.

THIS is an example of what I mean...
It was premeditated mass-murder
No -it's not murder until a judicial review establishes there is a case of murder to answer. Not your or my opinion. Ditto "premeditated" - THIS has yet to be established. An officer asking for orders and reacting to them is NOT "premeditation" - quite the reverse, it would appear from the few details available to US that it was ANYTHING but premeditated, more of a knee-jerk reaction to events...AND second-hand at a distance in Tours!
it is important that the truth be know as to who conducted the killings and who was responsible
Agreed. But what SHOULD be happening is an investigative inquiry into all the circumstances - THEN a judicial review of whether there remains a case under CURRENT laws and statute limitations to answer.

THIS for example is what has been happening in the Demanjuk case....and the couple of recent cases here in the UK; in the US the court system THERE has to be satisfied there's a case to answer before extradition, likewise the legal system HERE.

One important issue that seems to being missed here is that the GERMANS are driving this - whereas the FRENCH inquiry was done and dusted DECADES ago. Personally I would question whether a GERMAN judical enquiry should be investigating French casualties of an event on French soil; if there are questions remaining to answer it should be a FRENCH enquiry assisted by the Germans.
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Re: Germans to re-investigate the massacre at Maillé

Post by Cott Tiger »

I take on board all of your points.

By pre-meditated I meant that it wasn’t just some unlucky civilian caught in the crossfire or a single death from a jumpy or scared soldier. The eye-witness reports all indicate that the German soldiers moved determinedly from house to house seeking out civilians to kill, often in unnecessarily horrific fashion (throat slits, burnt alive, heads caved in etc).

The soldiers knew as they entered the village, that they were going in to murder women and children. Hence, by definition it’s premeditated. (dictionary.com definition of premeditated: Characterized by deliberate purpose, previous consideration, and some degree of planning: a premeditated crime.)

We know it was a concerted, determined, planned and co-ordinated massacre.

Regards,

André
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Re: Germans to re-investigate the massacre at Maillé

Post by phylo_roadking »

(dictionary.com definition of premeditated: Characterized by deliberate purpose, previous consideration, and some degree of planning: a premeditated crime.)
In THIS case we need to be more concerned with LEGAL definitions.
The soldiers knew as they entered the village, that they were going in to murder women and children. Hence, by definition it’s premeditated.
No. We know that when they entered the village they had been told to "attack Maillé". At this point that is exaclty ALL we can say definitely. Whether what happened was related in ANY way to the orders Schleuter received or to the intentions of whoever gave them to him is what has STILL to be established.

"The order was ambiguous. Was he being told to take a patrol into the village to root out partisans? Or was he to initiate mass slaughter as a lesson"

What happened appears to have been that after a number of incidents Schleuter telephoned for orders, and was told to attack the village. Pre-meditated as in "planned" is the one thing that appears NOT to have happened here - or else he

1/ wouldn't have NEEDED to telephone for orders;
2/ would have been told to action "Plan X" or whatever as previously discussed.

This what didn't happen here. Or rather - we have nothing as yet on the matter AS I REFERRED TO ABOVE - from the previous French investigation - so at THIS point we do not know what facts have ALREADY been estabished or not.
We know it was a concerted, determined, planned and co-ordinated massacre
No, we do NOT know that without knowing the results of the earlier investigation. All we DO have is as used by a journalist pruned SEVERELY. Establishing whether it was planned OR coordinated is the exact purpose of the investigation - WHO planned it (if at all) and thus who issued Schleuter his orders, and who he coordinated WITH if at all.

Even the inital article mentions that this all is YET to be established...so no, we do NOT know any of the things you say "we know" - for if they were KNOWN then there wouldn't be an investigation, would there?
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Re: Germans to re-investigate the massacre at Maillé

Post by Cott Tiger »

Phylo,

I see you point. However, all the presently known facts indicate that the attack was predetermined. Soldiers moving determinedly from house to house killing every single man women and child they came across (and could root out) combined with the artillery attack, indicate that the massacre of Maillé was planned and co-ordinated. The annihilation of the town and its inhabitants was clearly the objective. There is little room for ambiguity on that.

Hopefully the investigation will be able to clarify who exactly was responsible and how and why the massacre took place.

Regards,

André
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Re: Germans to re-investigate the massacre at Maillé

Post by Cott Tiger »

phylo_roadking wrote:
(dictionary.com definition of premeditated: Characterized by deliberate purpose, previous consideration, and some degree of planning: a premeditated crime.)
In THIS case we need to be more concerned with LEGAL definitions.
Some interesting legal definitions of premeditated/premeditation

findlaw.com:
having been thought about at some point before being committed
Example: any premeditated killing

legal-dictionary.org:
Considering or planning an action before committing it, particularly a crime.

legal-dictionary.com:
To think of an act beforehand; to contrive and design; to plot or lay plans for the execution of a purpose.

legal-dictionary.com:
PREMEDITATION. A design formed to commit a crime or to do some other thing before it is done.
2. Premeditation differs essentially from will, which constitutes the crime, because it supposes besides an actual will, a deliberation and a continued persistence which indicate more perversity. The preparation of arms or other instruments required for the execution of the crime, are indications of a premeditation, but are not absolute proof of it, as these preparations may have been intended for other purposes, and then suddenly changed to the performance of the criminal act. Murder by poisoning must of necessity be done with premeditation. See Aforethought; Murder.

Regards,

André
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Re: Germans to re-investigate the massacre at Maillé

Post by phylo_roadking »

And in THIS case
Considering or planning an action before committing it, particularly a crime
To think of an act beforehand; to contrive and design; to plot or lay plans for the execution of a purpose
PREMEDITATION. A design formed to commit a crime or to do some other thing before it is done.
2. Premeditation differs essentially from will, which constitutes the crime, because it supposes besides an actual will, a deliberation and a continued persistence which indicate more perversity. The preparation of arms or other instruments required for the execution of the crime, are indications of a premeditation, but are not absolute proof of it, as these preparations may have been intended for other purposes, and then suddenly changed to the performance of the criminal act. Murder by poisoning must of necessity be done with premeditation. See Aforethought; Murder.
Note the words in bold; these are exactly what appears to have been MISSING from this case. If they were present - then Schleuter wouldn't have HAD to phone for orders, NOR would he be in any confusion over either what those orders constituted OR what he was then expected to do. Quite literally - there's NO sign of legal premeditation present at Maillé.

To be more specific - Schleuter didn't consider what to...he booted the decision up the line; he didn't plan what to do...ditto, and he couldn't plan in relation to the instruction he got. He didn't think of an action beforehand - he moved that elsewhere. He didn't contrive, plot, plan or design - quite the reverse; he still didn't know what to do EVEN after getting that order from Tours.

Remember - interestingly, even the FRENCH didn't charge him with murder...nor any members of HIS identifiable unit :wink: They charged HIM with ordering the killings, as the event had been cited as a War crime, so ordering it was a capital enough offence. Noticably they DIDN'T charge him with a crime in which premeditation would have to be identified.

P.S. The argument "the preparation of arms or other instruments required for the execution of the crime, are indications of a premeditation" does not apply here - "but are not absolute proof of it, as these preparations may have been intended for other purposes, and then suddenly changed to the performance of the criminal act" DOES apply...because these are soliders of an occupying force, so they're armed as a matter of course in a recognisedly hostile environement. Preparation of arms doesn't apply in the case of people who habitually "go armed"; it's why armed police might be charged with SECOND degree homicide in the US or Manslaughter here rather than First degree homicide or Murder if they should shoot and kill someone BUT do it breaching their own rules and procedures etc.

Rather - "preparation of arms" refers to someone illegally purchasing or putting themselves in possession of an offensive weapon against local laws, purchasing something on the old Posions Register, that sort of thing.
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Re: Germans to re-investigate the massacre at Maillé

Post by phylo_roadking »

In fact - the more I think about it...the more likely it becomes that WHATEVER the outcome of the enquiry - Schleuter could very easily be EXONERATED for NOT giving the order! He wasn't there in France to argue ANYTHING in his own defence, but if the enquiry should identify WHO at Tours gave that ambiguous decision and why, based on what information - or the lack of it...then depending on THOSE circumstances, the responsibility for ordering the killings could very easily move up to THEM! :shock:
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Re: Germans to re-investigate the massacre at Maillé

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HOWEVER - as we are verging away from the rules on which war crimes are discussed on this Section of the Forum...and we CANNOT effectively discuss or comment without

A/ More knowledge of the events on the day;

B/ More knowledge of the events of the French investigation and trial in absentia of Schleuter;

C/ More details of the planned German investigation...

I am closing this thread TEMPORARILY note the use of that word.

If ANYONE with more details or factual material in regards to those three areas above contacts me by PM - I will definitely reopen the thread so that FACTUAL material is posted. As we are ALL aware, this is not a Section for theorizing on outcomes of as-yet or possibly NEVER-occuring court cases or enquiries; it is for the FACT-based discussion of proven events - and SO far we have come to the end of the limited facts in the public domain UNTIL someone puts more there, or anyone here has something more to add on the events itself or circumstances surrounding it?
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