the bombardment of Dresden

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tixodioktis
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the bombardment of Dresden

Post by tixodioktis »

the bombardment of Dresden



Dresden, the capital of Saxony, is world-renowned for its art treasures, outstanding theatrical productions and architecture. See the Green Vault with its exquisite collection of jeweled objects d'art in gold and silver. Visit the 18th-century Zwinger Palace, one of the greatest examples of Baroque architecture in Germany and the Semper Opera House with performances from September to May.



Splendid Baroque buildings, prestigious gardens : the Florence of the Elbe ! Dresden the Beautiful ! This was the setting for the splendid parties held by August the Strong, Elector of Saxony and King of Poland. (1670-1733). His moto was : more art and culture, less soldiers and less power. The Zwinger, the cathedral, the Baroque Königstraße, Pillnitz Palace and not least the countless art treasures of the museums and priceless wealth of the "Green Vault" treasure chamber all testify to this era.



Later, other artists (sculptors, authors and musicians) contributed to the fame of the city : Heinrich Schültz, Carl Maria von Weber, Richard Wagner, Robert Schumann, Ernst Hoffmann, Erich Kästner, Karl May, Caspar David Friedrich, and many others. Dresden was an innovative economic location and one of the richest cities in Germany. Today one can discover the largest villa quarter in the country. The district around Martin-Luther-Platz emerged at the turn of the century with an alternative city culture, with its own theatre, modern music and pubs. The picturesque and architecturally interesting Hellerau Garden City provides a worthwhile detour. Although the city suffered heavily from the bombardment of February 13, 1945, the art treasures, having been safely concealed, survive to establish the importance of Dresden as a cultural center.



The city has been rebuilt since the wartime destruction of 1945: historical the unique silhouette along the Elbe, soon to be crowned once more by the dome of the Frauenkirche, generously modern the southern precincts of the city centre, lovingly restored the Neustadt quarter. Dresden is in this way not only pointing to the splendour of former times and the outstanding significance of art, science and technology, but at the same time developing creative and future-oriented projects.



The economic life of Dresden is also flourishing again: tourism, an innovative computer industry and consumer goods are important sectors. Dresden is also a popular location for conferences and conventions.



Exists shoulder a mallow point, her bombardment in February 1945.



It was a crime?



My opinion is that it was a unpunished crime,



Do not forget shoulder that the victors write the history







Dresden destroyed by RAF Bombing.

Over 130,000 people killed.

The fiercest fire storm ever created by aerial bombardment.





This beautiful city was totally destroyed.

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tixodioktis
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Post by tixodioktis »

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The creation of a firestorm in Dresden
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tixodioktis
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Post by tixodioktis »

Web pages

Dresden 13/14. Feb.1945
http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Extrablatt/ ... 3_engl.htm

APOCALYPSE AT DRESDEN
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/war/dresden1.html

The bombing of Dresden in World War II
http://dictionary.laborlawtalk.com/Bomb ... rld_War_II

Bombing of Dresden
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdresden.htm

Confidential reports: To bomb Dresden did not ask
http://www.gorod.lv/news/28534/confiden ... id_not_ask

Czech concentration camp survivor and forced labourer recalls Dresden's destruction
http://www.radio.cz/en/article/63444

Holocaust at Dresden
http://clarysmith.com/scriptorium/engli ... den-e.html

Apocalypse at Dresden
by R.H.S. Crossman

http://www.fpp.co.uk/reviews/Dresden/Esquire1163.html

HISTORICAL ANALYSIS OF THE 14-15 FEBRUARY 1945
BOMBINGS OF DRESDEN

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Po ... resden.htm
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Post by lwd »

Why post this in the war crimes section? There are many descriptors that can be applied to this event but it wasn't a war crime.
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Re: the bombardment of Dresden

Post by WT »

A link to the United States Air Force historical analysis of the bombing.

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Po ... resden.htm
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Re: the bombardment of Dresden

Post by Andy H »

Dresden destroyed by RAF Bombing.
Dont forget the minor role undertaken by the USAAF
Over 130,000 people killed.
That figure is now seen as very doubtful
The fiercest fire storm ever created by aerial bombardment
Certainly in Europe, though some of the firestorms unleashed upon Japan were equal to it.

Regards
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Re: the bombardment of Dresden

Post by timmy872 »

the parents of my Ex "other half" lived through the bombing, giesla was 5 and wolfgang 12. both surprisingly (or maybe not) do not recall the times. giesla and her mother were dug from a cellar along with the other survivors of her block. wolfgang simply does not or will not recall how he survived.
neither of them hold any grudge about the action and believed it was "due" to them (germanys actions) even if not actually necessary. they consider it almost as acceptable punishment, well maybe acceptable is wrong if not more expected that the allies would do such a thing out of spite/ revenge/show of force/ cos they can. they do not consider it a war crime though lots of friends must have perrished.
how much of there views is based on later post war schooling i do not know.
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Re: the bombardment of Dresden

Post by phylo_roadking »

As the Dresden Bombing and the Bombing Offensive as a whole wasn't a war crime, I'm going to move this into the General Discussion area rather than close it, as its's a thread worth keeping open.
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Re: the bombardment of Dresden

Post by Cott Tiger »

tixodioktis wrote:the bombardment of Dresden

Exists shoulder a mallow point, her bombardment in February 1945.

It was a crime?

My opinion is that it was a unpunished crime,

Do not forget shoulder that the victors write the history



Dresden destroyed by RAF Bombing.

Over 130,000 people killed.

The fiercest fire storm ever created by aerial bombardment.



This beautiful city was totally destroyed.
Hello tixodioktis,

You have made some bold statements but have failed to back them up with any facts or evidence. You have supplied us with some nice background information on the cultural significance of Dresden and displayed us with some moving and graphic pictures of burnt bodies, but you haven’t actually provided any information which supports the points you have made.
You have given a list of websites relating to this topic but some of these directly contradict the key points in your post.

What “crime” do you believe was committed at Dresden? Which specific law or treaty do you believe was contravened?
Do you believe the Luftwaffe, which obliterated numerous Polish, Dutch, French, Soviet and British villages, towns and cities and their civilian inhabitants in the six years prior to Dresden in 1945 were also guilty of these alleged “crimes” or were they specific to the RAF?

You kindly remind us of the old chestnut “the victors write the history”. What exactly do you believe hasn’t been written about Dresden? There has been decades of detailed research and detailed analysis, much of it critical, about the RAF’s tactics and strategies during WWII. Are you still suggesting that somehow the “real” truth is being suppressed?

What evidence do you have that “over 130,000 people were killed”? Most studies, both German and British show this figure to be vastly exaggerated and unsubstantiated.

Regards,

André
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Re: the bombardment of Dresden

Post by phylo_roadking »

Andre, regarding
Do you believe the Luftwaffe, which obliterated numerous Polish, Dutch, French, Soviet and British villages, towns and cities and their civilian inhabitants in the six years prior to Dresden in 1945 were also guilty of these alleged “crimes” or were they specific to the RAF?
Please note that it has always been a standard on the forum that when discussions on war crimes arise, the sins or not of one side are NOT measured against or excused by those of the other. What constitutes a "war crime" is a breach of the various treaties defining the laws of warfare, treatment of non-combatants, destruction of property, treatment of POWS, etc. - or the commonly-held "customs of war" underpinning them...what does NOT make an action a "war crime" is that the other side did it first or worse. Each war crime or alledged war crime stands on its own "merits" and circumstances - and not in comparison with or measured against any other by degree. That is a entirely spurious line of argument. The thread is NOT discussing the Luftwaffe's aeriel bombing during WWII, it is discussing one specific incident in the Allies' aerial bombardment of Germany.

Tixodioktis, there has indeed been much confusion over the death toll at Dresden, although the "lumpy bits" of fact have floated generally now to the top of the mass of propaganda, inaccuracy and disinformation. Here are some of the high and low points - in both the numbers, AND the accuracy of reporting;
Exact figures are difficult to ascertain. Estimates are complicated by the fact that the city and surrounding suburbs, which had a population of 642,000 in 1939, was crowded at the time of the bombing with up to 200,000 refugees, and thousands of wounded soldiers. Earlier reputable estimates of casualties varied from 25,000 to more than 60,000, but historians now view around 25,000–35,000 as the likely range with Dresden historian Friedrich Reichert pointing toward the lower end of it. It would appear from such estimates that the casualties suffered in the Dresden bombings were similar to those suffered in other German cities subject to firebombing during area bombardment.

According to official German report Tagesbefehl (Order of the Day) no. 47 ("TB47") issued on 22 March the number of dead recovered by that date was 20,204, including 6,865 who were cremated on the Altmarkt, and the total number of deaths was expected to be about 25,000. Another report on 3 April put the number of corpses recovered at 22,096. The municipal cemetery office recorded 21,271 victims of the raids were buried in the city cemeteries, of which 17,295 were placed in the Heidefriedhof cemetery (a total that included the ashes of those cremated at the Altmarkt). These numbers were probably supplemented by a number of additional private burials in other places. A further 1,858 bodies of victims were found during the rebuilding of Dresden between the end of the war and 1966. Since 1989 despite the extensive excavation for new buildings no war related bodies have been found. The number of people registered with the authorities as missing was 35,000; around 10,000 of those were later found to be alive.
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Re: the bombardment of Dresden

Post by Cott Tiger »

phylo_roadking wrote:Andre, regarding
Do you believe the Luftwaffe, which obliterated numerous Polish, Dutch, French, Soviet and British villages, towns and cities and their civilian inhabitants in the six years prior to Dresden in 1945 were also guilty of these alleged “crimes” or were they specific to the RAF?
Please note that it has always been a standard on the forum that when discussions on war crimes arise, the sins or not of one side are NOT measured against or excused by those of the other. What constitutes a "war crime" is a breach of the various treaties defining the laws of warfare, treatment of non-combatants, destruction of property, treatment of POWS, etc. - or the commonly-held "customs of war" underpinning them...what does NOT make an action a "war crime" is that the other side did it first or worse. Each war crime or alledged war crime stands on its own "merits" and circumstances - and not in comparison with or measured against any other by degree. That is a entirely spurious line of argument. The thread is NOT discussing the Luftwaffe's aeriel bombing during WWII, it is discussing one specific incident in the Allies' aerial bombardment of Germany.
Phylo,

Point taken.

Regards,

André
Up The Tigers!
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Re: the bombardment of Dresden

Post by lwd »

Wasn't there a retaliation clause in at least some of the documents covering war crimes at least up to the end of WWII? If so then if one side engages in a specific activity it may be a warcrime but if the other side retaliates in kind it may not be. In this case at least one needs to look at the activities of both sides.
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Re: the bombardment of Dresden

Post by phylo_roadking »

IIRC these were very specific, like the HRLW annex that covered the intentional destruction of national cultural icons - buildings etc., and also some of the provisions regarding what WAS allowed as retaliatory actions in the case of shooting hostages, that sort of thing - but not any tit-for-tat one-crime-cancels-out-another. With THAT leeway the Eastern front would have been even MORE of a free-for-all than it already was! :shock:

The legal position on Bomber Command's carpet bombing is quite clear - it wasn't a war crime. Bomber Command's re-issued 1942 targeting doctrine is VERY specific on what it targeted; from the Area Bombing Directive of 14th February, 1942 -
"Operations should now be focused on the morale of the enemy civilian population and in particular, the industrial workers"
...specifically by targeting their HOUSING...not the workers and their families themselves - which would have broken the Hague Convention. After the failure of Bomber Command's precision bombing campaign up to Spring 1941, the RAF returned to a more strictly Douhet-inspired camapign - they didn't want to KILL German industrial workers...which WOULD have been a war crime...but instead they wanted to drive them out of their homes and out into the countryside from fear of loosing their lives, and make them too scared to return. Individual workers could be replaced in a couple of hours in unskilled or semi-skilled jobs...but a worker who lost his or her home had to spend a couple of days finding new accomodation for his family, or sending them to safety, replacing lost belongings/clothing, queuing for new rationcards etc., while more and more State resources were devoted to rehousing people, building shelters, emergency relief etc. :wink: Basically they wanted to make industrial workers' lives hell IF they stayed at work - NOT take those lives, as THAT would actually cost the German state LESS in the long run!!!

However - as we all know (and it's been debated MANY times on Feldgrau in the past, just search on "Harris") what REALLY raised eyebrows was the degree of civilian casualties...SO close to the end of the war. In THIS case, as the details on casualties above notes, the population of the city was vastly swollen by refugees, and the mission itself was a strategic-level operation flown on the request of Stalin for strictly tactical purposes - Dresden being a very major road and rail axis just behind the German front line at that point. The waters were further muddied by Churchill's subsequent letter to Harris ordering that any further missions that close to the end of the war be re-evaluated because of the potential level of casualties in the transient civilian population and how they might be looked upon by the world in general. That's often erroneously regarded as Churchill condemning Dresden - but it's actually a conditional on how the NEXT similar operation might be regarded :wink: i.e. Harris and Bomber Command had learned how to carry out their remit TOO effectively, as Bomber Command could no longer strategically influence the outcome of the war, nor did it NEED to at this point.

But that doesn't make Dresden a "war crime" in legal terms i.e. a breach of the Hague or Geneva Conventions, or the customs of war.
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Re: the bombardment of Dresden

Post by lwd »

phylo_roadking wrote:.... With THAT leeway the Eastern front would have been even MORE of a free-for-all than it already was! :shock:
I thought the Soviets weren't signatories to the conventions so a lot of them didn't apply either way on the Eastern front.
The legal position on Bomber Command's carpet bombing is quite clear - it wasn't a war crime. Bomber Command's re-issued 1942 targeting doctrine is VERY specific on what it targeted; from the Area Bombing Directive of 14th February, 1942 -
"Operations should now be focused on the morale of the enemy civilian population and in particular, the industrial workers"
...specifically by targeting their HOUSING...not the workers and their families themselves - which would have broken the Hague Convention. ...
But that doesn't make Dresden a "war crime" in legal terms i.e. a breach of the Hague or Geneva Conventions, or the customs of war.
On a similar thread I remember seeing the exemptions that allowed attacks on cities. They were enough that any major city was a legitimate target. AS I recall it included exemptions if the city had war related industries or was defended among others. Obviously desinged for the 19th century and not the 20th.
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Re: the bombardment of Dresden

Post by phylo_roadking »

I thought the Soviets weren't signatories to the conventions so a lot of them didn't apply either way on the Eastern front.
No they weren't - but there are so many grey areas and exceptions LOL The Soviets repudiated the TSAR's signing of them in 1917, along with all other "imperial international treaties"; it was Bolshevik political ideology that instead of signing up to big, multi-nation pacts...Russia would make one-to-one agreements with individual nations for short-term gain for the duration of the agreement. This allowed them to turn round and agree Brest-litovsk witht he germans, reach agreement with britain over Bessarabia...and a list of others between the wars.

They treated the Hague and Geneva Conventions alike - as if they could cherry-pick which clauses and sections they would abide by. They COULD legally do this on each individual Geneva Convention - they signed up to some but not others - but the Hague Conventions were different. What they DID try to do was reach agreement with an enemy that certain provisions of Hague would be adhered to by both sides in a conflict involving Russia; they agreed for example with Finland not to target recognised national cultural historical sites and buildings...

BUT in 1941 when via intermediaries (possibly the Bulgarians again) Stalin approached Hitler to agree that they both respect the Hague Conventions for the duration of the war - Hitler, certain of victory, told the Soviets where to go!

However - on a number of occasions SINCE the war the ICRC in Geneva - NOW the managing body behind the 1949 Geneva Convention that brought the earlier Hague and Geneva conventions under one new umbrella - had given the opinion that if only ONE side in a war was a signatory to the Hague Conventions as of WWII....THEY were still bound by their signing-up! And GERMANY was a long-time signatory...

But I should note that's a POST-war, retrospective opinion - and wasn't what was held DURING the war, by "interested parties", so to speak. The OLDER opinion was that BOTH sides had to be signatories for HRLW to apply, as if it was only ONE of them, the gloves were off :shock:
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